... to handle properly?
rpg51 said this in another thread: "I had one kevlar boat in my life. It sure was nicer to carry on land and I liked that. But on the water? Ugh. Too light. It sat on top of the water instead of in the water. It got blown around something awful. I am slowly coming around around to the point of view that our modern canoes are just too darn light and it has a negative impact on the paddling performance."
This is a very interesting thought.
Touring Kayak Paddles
Touring Kayak Paddles
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|Messages in this Topic|
It was probably too large a boat for him|
Posted by: Yanoer on Mar-06-14 12:06 AM (EST)
Don't paddle a boat that you can't sink enough for proper handling.
Posted by: clydehedlund on Mar-06-14 3:17 AM (EST)
Size problem, not the weight. However, obtain a heavier version of the same size canoe and see, if indeed, it does handle better or the same or worse?
Not For This Boy|
Posted by: wildernesswebb on Mar-06-14 12:48 AM (EST)
But I've always been big and tall so not a problem for me, however; I can understand how someone could feel that nothing feels as good in the water as a wooden canoe.
I can't relate to this|
Posted by: vic on Mar-06-14 1:22 AM (EST)
Lightweight canoes are beyond the realm of my experience.
Posted by: Celia on Mar-06-14 7:45 AM (EST)
I have one, though it hasn't seen much water the last couple of seasons due to home front distractions. It is some super-light layup - weighs maybe 21 pounds.
Another thing float bags do is change |
Posted by: ezwater on Mar-06-14 8:40 PM (EST)
the aerodynamics. If the main symptom of being a bit light on the water was blowing and skittering around in wind, then float bags that fill much of the bow and stern can make quite a difference.
Light boat handling|
Posted by: roundsidedown1 on Mar-07-14 8:08 PM (EST)
I mostly paddle light weight canoes(Classic XL(21lbs), JD Pro(25), Susquehanna(28), Amateur racer(28)) in flat water. The trim of the boat greatly affects the handling. All my boats have sliding seats( center(solos) and Bow and Stern(Tandems). Depending on the wind, I change seat position. I have raced and toured with my children(80-100lbs difference) and need to trim very carefully when fighting a head, quartering and tailwinds. When my kids paddle together or solo my canoes, they maybe have a 2" draft. They handle the canoes great because they know how to trim the canoes.
Trim, yes. I have been on the |
Posted by: ezwater on Mar-14-14 11:10 AM (EST)
English about how so many of them solo Prospectors with the bow light. A racing canoe will be most sensitive to trip, a Prospector less so. Whitewater solo boats are also less sensitive to trim, except that, if the paddler is properly centered, leaning forward or back exerts almost instant control over several aspects of boat behavior.
anyone want to do some math|
Posted by: kayamedic on Mar-06-14 8:36 AM (EST)
Posted by: Celia on Mar-06-14 9:07 AM (EST)
The reason I was drawn to a light boat was because of proximity to the Adirondacks, and portaging.
Our Bluewater tandem at 50# seems |
Posted by: ezwater on Mar-06-14 8:55 PM (EST)
light enough for portaging, and is certainly more rugged that true lightweights at 40 pounds or so.
Posted by: Guideboatguy on Mar-06-14 9:59 AM (EST)
Posted by: Celia on Mar-06-14 10:11 AM (EST)
I was shocked when I started looking for a bike again a decade ago and saw the prices compared to the 1980's. And yes, most of the people paying the Cadillac prices were not as skinny as they used to be. It was funny.
Light bikes are easier to put on roof |
Posted by: Yanoer on Mar-06-14 2:58 PM (EST)
racks than heavier bikes.
light bikes make a huge difference|
Posted by: slushpaddler on May-23-14 4:39 PM (EST)
I hear what you're saying and think it applies in spades to new kayaks as well. But weight can make a pretty big difference in cycling.
Some years back, I used to see charts|
Posted by: mickjetblue on Mar-06-14 9:24 AM (EST)
of load weight with corresponding displacement depths for different canoes.
Posted by: shiraz627 on Mar-06-14 9:39 AM (EST)
My PBW Spitfire handles like a dream unless you hit a big gust of wind. you can always add ballast but then that defeats the purpose.For windy conditions I tend to take the kayak.
Some boat mfrs do give|
Posted by: kayamedic on Mar-06-14 9:40 AM (EST)
only if it blows away|
Posted by: TommyC1 on Mar-06-14 9:52 AM (EST)
I had a J-200 for a short while. That boat was difficult to load unload from the car in a breeze. It had a tendency to levitate up off the racks before I could get it tied down.
the lighter the better|
Posted by: pblanc on Mar-06-14 10:46 AM (EST)
Posted by: pdlgsltd on Mar-06-14 5:05 PM (EST)
My son and I paddle an Esquif Nitro royalex and a MIllbrook Rival composite when we head for class II or above. We fight over the composite hull. It literally jumps across fast water, and the esquif is quite a bit more work. Both our solo touring canoes are composite and we love the light weight, much easier over a long day, ferrying, eddy turns, etc. my $.02.
Posted by: wesd on Mar-06-14 12:33 PM (EST)
Several years ago a similar question was asked regarding the displacement of a canoe in fresh water vs. salt water. With the same load and due only to the different specific gravity of the water this translated to about 1/32" increase in freeboard for an assumed initial displacement.
Let's assume an empty canoe|
Posted by: Glenn_MacGrady on Mar-06-14 1:14 PM (EST)
I'm assuming rpg51 was talking about an empty canoe, other than the paddler. Anyway, I think it's best to assume that for consistency of discussion.
Upwind & Accelerating, Light is Faster|
Posted by: clydehedlund on Mar-06-14 2:48 PM (EST)
Cartopping outriggers in the wind|
Posted by: Glenn_MacGrady on Mar-06-14 3:04 PM (EST)
Light outriggers are particularly difficult to get on top of a high vehicle in the wind, as TC1 described for his Jensen.
Scary Thought Hoisting a $5,000 Canoe|
Posted by: clydehedlund on Mar-08-14 12:46 AM (EST)
Onto a tall van, SUV or pick-up truck. But the outrigger gals do it all time in 20+ kt. winds and gusts. Offering to help would be considered a condescending gesture.
Turn van and canoe upwind and 'luff'|
Posted by: onnopaddle on Mar-08-14 11:24 PM (EST)
it onto racks.
Just a guess|
Posted by: pblanc on Mar-06-14 5:07 PM (EST)
but I suspect once a heavier boat is paddled up to speed on flat water it probably requires no greater effort to keep it at that speed than it does a lighter one.
Canoe rocker is major consideration|
Posted by: yatipope on Mar-06-14 8:13 PM (EST)
I believe that two canoes of exact same design but different weight would paddle similar if the same waterline length were submerged! The greater the rocker,..the greater the difference in submerged hull-length and the more likely the canoe would be effected by wind and have its tracking characteristics affected. SO what I mean is a Wenonah Prism would probably have less noticeable handling differences between a very lightweight composite layup and a heavier royalex layup than say,...a Mad River Guide with some rocker.
You have to be careful about what's |
Posted by: ezwater on Mar-06-14 8:49 PM (EST)
meant by rocker, though. First, I recently saw plans by John Winters for an 18' 6" cruiser where he had trimmed away the stern, a bit, and the bow, quite a bit, leaving quite a bit more "rocker" than my old 18.5' Moore. Yet I know that, although they are otherwise similar, the Winters boat is going to be as fast on rivers and faster on lakes.
"solo single blading canoeist"|
Posted by: ret603 on Jun-01-14 6:19 PM (EST)
Not always easy to carry either...|
Posted by: PJC on Mar-06-14 8:41 PM (EST)
I have an 18.5' kevlar fast tripper (Bell Mystic) and I love it on the water. I does accelerate faster than a heavier boat and cruises nicely on large lakes and big rivers, though heavier boats can do that also. (Get a freight train rolling and it wants to keep rolling. Its the "stop & go" that can wear you down.)
Two Canoes - Light vs. Heavy|
Posted by: vk1nf on Mar-07-14 9:06 PM (EST)
You have to consider the same |
Posted by: kayamedic on Mar-08-14 8:29 AM (EST)
That IS apples to oranges|
Posted by: Guideboatguy on Mar-08-14 10:08 AM (EST)
Hull Designs Make the Difference|
Posted by: vk1nf on Mar-08-14 1:21 PM (EST)
The Oneida 18 (I did ID it) is a long, slender, low-freeboard boat with a pronounced forefoot and stern run that gives it exceptional tracking in wind with excellent stability. Its faults, if you want to call them that, are the weight and the fact that it's anything but nimble - turns, as a sailing friend says, are majestic. It's made to eat up the miles (or kilometers, up north here) quickly and efficiently,has real good glide, and is the most 'solid-feeling' canoe I've paddled.
What I thought|
Posted by: kayamedic on Mar-08-14 1:40 PM (EST)
the difference in the shear makes all the difference in the wind.
Yup, Partly Windage...|
Posted by: vk1nf on Mar-08-14 4:11 PM (EST)
...and partly hull design - two entirely different designs for two different purposes. Assuming identical hull designs, I would expect the heavier boat to have more 'glide' - more momentum. I'd love to have the Oneida 18 in Kevlar, tho...
Posted by: Guideboatguy on Mar-08-14 10:57 PM (EST)
Yup, An Oneida III (18')|
Posted by: vk1nf on Mar-09-14 8:38 PM (EST)
My apologies for the confusion.
Posted by: sissy103 on Mar-08-14 6:41 AM (EST)
as I have a canoe that weighs less than 30 lbs (Vermont Tupper) and am considering one even lighter http://www.hornbeckboats.com/boats_bjnt_12.php
Super light Hornbeck would be ...|
Posted by: Glenn_MacGrady on Mar-08-14 8:38 PM (EST)
Too bad its still in the thought|
Posted by: kayamedic on Mar-08-14 11:13 PM (EST)
process. Heading south Monday...empty boat space on truck..
That Hornbeck New Tricks Blackjack 12|
Posted by: Yanoer on Mar-09-14 12:42 AM (EST)
looks pretty interesting.
Have they stopped making them from |
Posted by: ezwater on Mar-09-14 12:52 AM (EST)
The Classics are still Kevlar.|
Posted by: sissy103 on Mar-09-14 1:40 PM (EST)
I had the opportunity to demo a Classic 10 which is Kevlar. Very nice little boat, but too beamy for me.
Posted by: gnatcatcher on Mar-10-14 2:03 PM (EST)
Are you coming up north this summer to try one out?
I doubt it,|
Posted by: sissy103 on Mar-11-14 7:46 AM (EST)
as I would hate to miss a moment of our Florida summer!
Sinful inspiration there, madame.|
Posted by: canoeswithduckheads on Mar-10-14 2:07 PM (EST)
All Kevlar is not necessarily a bad |
Posted by: ezwater on Mar-12-14 7:12 PM (EST)
layup, but CC/KK or SS/KK is better, stiffer, more able to take a shot and retain form so you can finish a trip.
Posted by: kayamedic on Mar-09-14 1:42 PM (EST)
but carbon fiber has been available from Hornbeck for the last few years.
Try Swimming for One in Brisk Wind|
Posted by: clydehedlund on Mar-09-14 8:12 PM (EST)
Or in light wind with a PFD on. Wear a leash!
Hornbeck 12 New Trick...|
Posted by: Riverdave on Mar-10-14 10:54 AM (EST)
in the carbon layup has graced my modest canoe fleet for about a year now. It has been on numerous multi day Adirondack trips and is an absolute joy. Remarkable directional stability for a tiny canoe. My seat is padded up about 4 inches and I paddle with a single blade bent shaft. Crossing Raquette Lake with 25+ mph winds and 2-3 breaking whitecaps was remarkably non threatening as the canoe bobbed like a cork.(I'm a lightweight at 150 Lbs. with about 45 in gear). It's 13 lb. weight made single portaging painless. Other than being somewhat slow, it is still a 12 foot boat, Pete's new design is one worth trying.
Thanks for that feedback.|
Posted by: Yanoer on Mar-10-14 12:46 PM (EST)
Looks like it could be a fun boat.
Posted by: sissy103 on Mar-11-14 7:50 AM (EST)
Thanks for the feedback---you're the first person I've found who has owned or paddled one.
Sissy and yanoer|
Posted by: riverdave on Mar-12-14 10:43 AM (EST)
Mine is the medium profile blackjack layup which for my total load is plenty and it facilitates use of the single blade. As mentioned previously, even in the rough stuff I've not taken on water. The flared configuration works wonders in spite of the relatively low freeboard.
Posted by: sissy103 on Mar-12-14 5:31 PM (EST)
The more one heads into the bush...|
Posted by: bigspencer on Mar-13-14 12:04 AM (EST)
towards relatively easy water, often by myself, the question "are lightweight canoes too light"...is answered with the other question..."Too Light For What?". Walking over some of the long since cut branches and limbs I often encounter, the tough part is 1) finding the bog/pond and 2) the lug in/out while maintaining one's balance = much easier with something light, if not the most bombproof hull... Both seem to have their place.
Not too light weight...|
Posted by: spiritboat on Mar-13-14 9:39 AM (EST)
Posted by: sissy103 on Mar-13-14 11:06 AM (EST)
not making my wretched back worse is worth a lot!
Here you go, Sissy...|
Posted by: spiritboat on Mar-13-14 7:28 PM (EST)
4 lbs...$299--I carry a couple around in my wallet, for those times I come across that undiscovered puddle...Fun if you're double-blading it anyway(Not really sure if they come with a hull graphic that says GATOR DO NOT BITE ME!on the bottom, though.):
Cute! Lightweight! Affordable!|
Posted by: sissy103 on Mar-13-14 9:13 PM (EST)
But I seem to recall a leaky inflatable on the St. Johns once....
Go for the Blackjack, Sissy|
Posted by: Glenn_MacGrady on Mar-13-14 10:44 PM (EST)
Lighter is better for just about all things.
That is sweet of you,|
Posted by: sissy103 on Mar-14-14 8:06 AM (EST)
but that old dawg doesn't have any New Tricks in stock yet. I'm told the weather has to warm up before they can get to work....
Lighter, Stronger, Better|
Posted by: CEWilson on Mar-14-14 10:18 AM (EST)
Hornbecks allow for this|
Posted by: martin on May-23-14 2:50 PM (EST)
Not for this paddler|
Posted by: Jackl on May-23-14 3:55 PM (EST)
We have two Kevlar Wenonah, Jensen 17's and among all our canoes they are our favorites. They weigh 39 pounds.
reminds me of my favorite saying:|
Posted by: slushpaddler on May-23-14 4:37 PM (EST)
"Has anyone seen the invisible tape?"
Have you seen my lost button hole?|
Posted by: Yanoer on May-23-14 11:53 PM (EST)
Unless an UL is packed a little with|
Posted by: bigspencer on May-26-14 10:22 PM (EST)
Posted by: HerbG on May-30-14 5:58 PM (EST)
For those of us well past our prime, almost nothing is as important as a lack of weight. Perhaps not on the water; but always getting to it. I bought a "light" Eddyline Equinox kayak the summer before I turned 70.
RapidFire does just fine on open |
Posted by: kayamedic on May-30-14 6:08 PM (EST)
water ..salt included. I use mine all the time on the Gulfs of Maine and Mexico and Lake Superior.
Just got back from doing two five mile|
Posted by: jackL on Jun-01-14 6:59 PM (EST)
Jack, what is your size?|
Posted by: Yanoer on Jun-01-14 10:20 PM (EST)
Been shrinking recently|
Posted by: jackL on Jun-02-14 12:43 PM (EST)
Used to be 5'-9", but now am 5'-8-1/2" and range between 153 and 162 depending on what holidays are around.
I thought that was about your size.|
Posted by: Yanoer on Jun-02-14 1:27 PM (EST)
I'm surprised the Wilderness doesn't feel a bit large on you.
Is the Wenonah Wilderness a . . . |
Posted by: Glenn_MacGrady on Jun-02-14 1:54 PM (EST)
. . . lightweight canoe for purposes of this topic?
So, what is a light weight canoe...|
Posted by: jackL on Jun-02-14 5:34 PM (EST)
I blame this whole topic on rpg51 . . . |
Posted by: Glenn_MacGrady on Jun-02-14 9:32 PM (EST)
. . . so I don't know what he meant by too light weight.
Can you help me out here?|
Posted by: sissy103 on Jun-03-14 12:30 PM (EST)
I'm trying to decide between:
I have read that|
Posted by: kayamedic on Jun-03-14 12:50 PM (EST)
matrix fabrics are not as predictable as to failure as distinct layers of carbon fiber and kevlar.
Posted by: sissy103 on Jun-03-14 5:19 PM (EST)
for posting that link. Some of the analysis is over my head, but interesting.
Either would do for your FL|
Posted by: kayamedic on Jun-03-14 5:29 PM (EST)
loggy streams. Strength of hull may be less important than the weight of the boat where you paddle with constant car unloading and loading
Sissy, my opinion|
Posted by: Glenn_MacGrady on Jun-03-14 7:16 PM (EST)
I don't know your height, weight or age. But if you want to go lighter than your Tupper, I'd go all the way to the lighter New Trick Blackjack if the extra money is doable.
Thank you, Glenn,|
Posted by: sissy103 on Jun-03-14 8:05 PM (EST)
I'm an aging baby boomer, 5'3", 123.
Posted by: wccanoe on Jun-03-14 8:26 PM (EST)