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Paddlers' Place Discussion Forum New Topic Printer Friendly Version

  General Mgmt Plan Meetings start 1/7
  Posted by: PamThePaddler on Jan-06-14 8:28 PM (EST)
 

-- Last Updated: Jan-06-14 10:39 PM EST --

Attend a meeting if you can. Rob and I will be at Kirkwood on Wednesday!

http://www.parkplanning.nps.gov/meetingNotices.cfm?projectID=15793


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Messages in this Topic

 

  next time, please put location info
  Posted by: Peter-CA on Jan-06-14 9:48 PM (EST)
Next time, please put location info in the post (preferably in the subject line) so people who are no where near this event don't have to open your message and then click through to the next message to see that this out of their area.

You should have said something in your original post like:

Ozark National Scenic Riverways » General Management Plan, Wilderness Study, Environmental Impact Statement

Open houses in Salem, MO in the morning and Kirkwood, MO in the evening on January 8.
 
 
  Subject line was too short!
  Posted by: PamThePaddler on Jan-06-14 10:31 PM (EST)
-- Last Updated: Jan-06-14 10:38 PM EST --

Subject line was too short. All it takes is a quick click on the link to figure out what it is. I did try and "edit' after I had posted to go in and change the subject line but it wouldn't let me edit the subject line, only the body of the post. I open post all the time that aren't in my "area", if I am not interested or it doesn't apply to me I just move on.

 
 
  Thank you for posting Pam
  Posted by: kayamedic on Jan-06-14 11:35 PM (EST)
I would love to hear a video of the meeting!

Too bad some here have such busy lives that doing an extra mouse click is a big deal.
 
 
  Thanks for posting,
  Posted by: pgeorg on Jan-07-14 7:12 AM (EST)
you have my proxy. I'm frozen in in Connecticut.

Peter
 
 
  A quick click.................
  Posted by: thebob.com on Jan-07-14 7:58 AM (EST)
-- Last Updated: Jan-07-14 8:02 AM EST --

A quick click of Pam's profile icon will tell you where she is from, and where her favorite paddling place is located.

Where is she talking about?
With a little simple deduction; it is elementary Watson.


BOB

P.S. Don't hang me with that rope; it's too new........

 
 
  Link to make comments!
  Posted by: PamThePaddler on Jan-07-14 9:10 AM (EST)
If you can't make a meeting you can still voice your opinion. Pete Blanc did a post on Advise, Suggestions and General Help titled Current & Jacks Forks Rivers and did a summary of the plan and there are other comments that one might find interesting.

Here is the link where to leave your comments about the plan.
http://www.parkplanning.nps.gov/document.cfm?parkID=158&projectID=15793&documentID=56208
 
 
  that was unnecessary
  Posted by: slushpaddler on Jan-07-14 9:21 AM (EST)
It was a helpful suggestion. some people can't take advice without getting bent personally.
 
 
  I'm with Slushpaddler on this one
  Posted by: TommyC1 on Jan-07-14 11:49 AM (EST)
Location info either in the title or first paragraph would be appreciated.
 
 
  I'll be there
  Posted by: paddledad on Jan-07-14 9:37 AM (EST)
With only an hour scheduled for the hearing portion, I hope they limit comments to 3 minutes. I'm sure they'll cut it off at 9:00.
 
 
  might want to look at this
  Posted by: pblanc on Jan-07-14 9:49 AM (EST)
-- Last Updated: Jan-07-14 10:25 AM EST --

http://ozarkareanetwork.com/localnews/?p=28661

I respect Mr Mansfield's comments because they were generally reasonable and moderate unlike some local commentary which has been bombastic, caustic, and hyperbolic. But Mr Mansfield claims that in 50 years neither he, nor any of his gigging friends have ever seen a canoe or kayak on the water of the upper Current during gigging season.

Taken at face value, Mr Mansfield's assertion would suggest that there is really not even a potential for conflict between motorized gigging craft and paddle craft.

I don't know much about gigging, but I understand that gigging season starts in September, and there are certainly plenty of paddle craft on the river that time of year. It is also my understanding that gigging is most productive toward dusk and early evening, so it may be that relatively few paddle craft are on the water at that time of day, but not necessarily none.

It so happens that I and several others were on the upper Current including the stretch shown in the video just over a week ago. I heard a power boat on at least one occasion, I saw a gigging boat that looked exactly like the one in the video tied up on shore (maybe they all look identical), and when I stopped at Akers to wait up for friends, I saw 3 john boats on the north side, one of which briefly put on the river.

I have heard gigging boats out on the water around Pulltite campground a number of times in the fall. They are hard to overlook due to the lights and the noise.

So one doesn't have to go back more than 50 years to find a time when power boats and paddle craft were on the water together during gigging season. A week and a half will do.

John boats set up for gigging have not caused a big conflict for me as a paddler in the past, although I have found the noise intrusive at times. But I think it is simply deceptive to take a day cruise on the upper Current in a power boat in early January, point out the absence of canoes and kayaks, and suggest that there is therefore no potential conflict between them.

There is another aspect of the video which is somewhat deceptive. The video starts with Mr Mansfield standing at the Pulltite access saying that under action alternative B in the draft general management plan, which is preferred by the NPS, all motorized traffic upstream of Pulltite would be prohibited, which is accurate. But then much of the video footage shows the Current River below Pulltite, including Pulltite and Fire Hydrant Springs.

Under action alternative B, motors of up to 25 hp would be permitted on this stretch of river during the off-peak season. I would hope this distinction was made clear to the media persons and members of the local Chambers of Commerce who took the tour.

Rick Mansfield is a main part of the Ozarks Heritage Project which is planning to organize a trailer cavalcade (including boat, ATV, and horse trailers) to the Kirkwood GMP event:
http://www.travtalk.net/ozarks-heritage-project-organizing-trailer-cavalcade-to-kirkwood-gmp-event-has-two-meetings-set-up-to-help-people-submit-electronic-comments/

 
 
  Giggers,
  Posted by: paddledad on Jan-07-14 10:26 AM (EST)
(and I are one, though not in the ONSR), tend to go all night. Last September I was snug in my tent around midnight on the lower Jack's Fork. In a (sleep induced?) stupor, I was aware of a motor coming upriver but couldn't put 2 and 2 together. A few minutes later it ended up being being full on daylight from the gigging lights about 30 feet from my tent.

A 5000KW generator makes a LOT more noise than an outboard. With the two combined, I would have instantly called the police for peace disturbance had it happened in suburbia.

I ask, is that acceptable?
 
 
  Yes
  Posted by: pblanc on Jan-07-14 10:32 AM (EST)
I have had the same experience. To have a gigging boat come past your campsite in the evening can be a rude awakening, literally.

Of course, with you up in your tent you are not causing any disturbance for them, and they most likely would not even know you are there.
 
 
  I had
  Posted by: paddledad on Jan-07-14 10:57 AM (EST)
flashbacks of a January night on a sandbar in the Missouri River when the county police sent a helicopter out to spotlight me in the middle of the night.
THOSE things are bright! :)
 
 
  meeting cancelled
  Posted by: pblanc on Jan-07-14 12:28 PM (EST)
https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=654845741246948&id=151841191547408
 
 
  Actually postponed
  Posted by: kayamedic on Jan-07-14 12:38 PM (EST)
It will just be on a warmer date
 
 
  Yep, just saw!
  Posted by: PamThePaddler on Jan-07-14 1:39 PM (EST)
Like Pete just saw on FB that the meetings have been postponed becuase of the weather.
 
 
  New Dates for Meetings
  Posted by: gremmie on Jan-09-14 6:16 AM (EST)
http://ozarkareanetwork.com/localnews/?p=28751
 
 
  "Comments are closed"???? - NM
  Posted by: paddledad on Jan-09-14 9:17 AM (EST)
 
 
  Comment period not closed
  Posted by: vic on Jan-09-14 9:46 AM (EST)
According to the National Park Service the comment period is open until February 7, 2014.

Here is a link to the OSNR comments page on the NPS web site:

http://www.parkplanning.nps.gov/commentForm.cfm?documentID=56208

Please submit your comments. They need to hear from more paddlers, the motor boaters and horseback riders are turning on the pressure.
 
 
  Just referring to link above
  Posted by: paddledad on Jan-09-14 10:39 AM (EST)
Another meeting at Eminence is probably not good news for paddlers, either.
3000 horse stalls below the high water mark, just unbelievable. How about we push for regular e. coli tests?
Yeah, like that will happen.
 
 
  There are supposed to be regular tests
  Posted by: pblanc on Jan-09-14 11:52 AM (EST)
-- Last Updated: Jan-09-14 12:30 PM EST --

for E. Coli and other pollutants under the Federal Clean Water Act, at least on the Jack's Fork River, since it has recently been on the 303(d) list of Missouri impaired waters.

Missouri, like other states, is required under the Federal Clean Water Act to submit its list of impaired waters (under section 303(d) of the Act) to the EPA only every other year.

The Jacks Fork River below Eminence was on the 303(d) list for Missouri impaired waters for the 2002-2004 cycle. A study reported by the USGS in 2006 provided significant evidence that:

"The largest fecal coliform bacteria densities in the water column and streambed sediment generally were detected in samples collected at the three main-stem sites (sites 80, 110, and 150) with the most intense cross-country horseback trail-riding activity. Exceedences of the whole-body-contact recreation standard occurred at these sites during trail rides.

Fecal indicator bacteria do not originate from the Eminence waste water treatment plant.

Increasing numbers of canoes, kayaks, and tubes are not related to increasing fecal coliform bacteria densities in the water column at site 110, but increasing numbers of horses crossing the river at site 110 are related to increasing densities.

Rep-PCR analysis identified horses as the predominant possible source of fecal indicator bacteria in the Jack's Fork. Sewage accounted for the smallest contributor, followed by cattle. A source of the bacteria identified as originating from cattle could be streambed sediments, which have been disturbed by trail-ride activity.

Recreational users (including boaters and swimmers) are not the primary source of fecal coliform bacteria in the Jacks Fork; rather, the presence of fecal coliform bacteria is associated with other animals, of which horses are the primary source. Increases in fecal coliform bacteria densities in the Jack's Fork are associated with cross-country horseback trail-riding events."

The study can be found in pdf format here: http://pubs.usgs.gov/sir/2006/5161/pdf/sir2006-5161.pdf

It should be noted that although the study was reported in 2006, water sampling was done in 2003 and 2004. The sites referenced (80, 110, and 150)are all on the Jack's Fork below Eminence. Site 80 is nearly opposite the Cross-country Trail Rides facility just downstream of Eminence, 110 just above Lick Log Hollow about 1 1/2 miles downstream, and 150 above Powell Spring another 2 miles or so downstream of site 110.

 
 
  To be fair
  Posted by: pblanc on Jan-09-14 12:17 PM (EST)
to those on the other side of this issue, I understand that Cross-Country Trail Rides did voluntarily make changes to their facility to reduce runoff from the stables into the river following placement of the Jack's Fork on the 303(d) list, and did so in a rather prompt manner.

I should also note that the Jack's Fork was delisted from the 303(d) list with the approval of the EPA for the 2004-2006 cycle as shown here:
http://www.epa.gov/region07/water/pdf/MO-303d_decision_doc_sep07.pdf

I do not believe that the Jack's Fork has returned to the 303(d) list since. But as this article suggests, many Missouri waterways are "unclassified" and are not tested for bacteria or other pollutants:
http://kiefercreek.weebly.com/uploads/6/4/4/5/6445779/riverfront_times_kiefer_creek.pdf

The article also argues that the Missouri Legislature in general, and the Missouri DNR specifically have not always been forthcoming regarding disclosure of high E. Coli levels, nor has the EPA fully agreed with the Missouri DNR's 303(d) listings and delistings. The article also maintains that the DNR's testing of Missouri waterways is inadequate due to lack of funding and manpower. And if you read page 5 of the article, you find not everyone feels that delisting of the lower Jack's Fork indicates it is no longer impaired.

I have heard the owner of Shady Lane cabins and motel in Eminence (who seems to be a thoroughly sensible and seemingly reliable person) state the opinion that at present the biggest threat to the lower Jack's Fork is the rather antiquated Eminence sewer system, the cracked clay conduits of which allow seepage of ground water into the sewers, and seepage of contaminated waste water into the adjacent ground water.

Even if improvements in the CCTR facility outside of Eminence have resulted in reductions in coliform bacterial pollution of the lower Jack's Fork, I think that based on the 2006 USGS study, the mass trail rides involving hundreds of riders still pose a significant threat to the river.
 
 
  To the point...............
  Posted by: thebob.com on Jan-09-14 1:47 PM (EST)
-- Last Updated: Jan-09-14 7:07 PM EST --

The Jacks Fork is part of the Ozark National Scenic Riverway. The section of the Jack's Fork from Eminence to Two River drains into the Current River; another part of the National Scenic Riverway.

DNR has been "studying" the problem for more than 10 years. They know where most of the waste & coliform bacteria comes from; a gigantic horse barn & massive trail rides. They don't have thousands of horse stalls available, just to stable hundreds of horses. DNR either can't or won't do anything to resolve the problem.

Just because tests are NOT done, and warning signs are NOT posted, does not mean that there is no bacterial pollution or waste going into the Jack's Fork and Current rivers from the gigantic horse barn, and the trail rides.

Sh-t runs downhill. Can you say ground water?
Not to worry; DNR is still "studying" it.

They aren't going to do anything about it; the powers that be don't really want anything done. The revenue from the trail rides is too important to the city of Emminence, and to individuals in power positions. Many of those individuals & businesses (selling power boats, 4 wheelers, horse trailers,boat trailers, horse tack, boat motors, food, silage, fuel etc) cater to the tourists, power boaters, and horseback riders. They have the politicians ears; they are generating revenue!

Follow the money! You'll see why nothing gets done to stop the pollution of the rivers.
And perhaps you will understand why 4 wheeler, boat, and horse trailer caravans show up at river management meetings.
At river management meetings there will be groups of people doing exactly what Chicago ward heelers do; hustle votes for those currently in power positions that they want to maintain. Listen to some of that, "they're stealing our heritage, they're stealing our freedom" bullsh-t coming out of the talking head's mouths.

What exactly are they saying?
Polluting the river with thousands of horses, power boats, and 4 wheelers is part of their "heritage", and we need to maintain that "heritage"?

BOB

P.S. The reason why "Mr. thick as a brick" doesn't see any canoes, and kayaks on the river during gigging season? Fish gigging is typically done at "night" on the Current River. Canoes & kayaks aren't outfitted with motors, generators, and banks of flood lights. That guy is a talking head; spouting BS, misdirection, and half truths, designed to further his agenda!

The old timers on the Current went gigging in wooden jon boat they poled, or paddled, and used pine knots & wood for illumination. New breed rationalization: We have all these high dollar boats, motors, generators, and lights; why not use them?

 
 
  Call it BassProShopization of 'Merica
  Posted by: gremmie on Jan-10-14 7:38 AM (EST)
Economic development is written into the DNA of conservation agencies, federal and state, across the country. It is a central part of their mission now days.

The state of Illinois' DNR, under Rob Blagojevich, spent 50 million dollars to develop the World Shooting Sports Complex at Sparta. Bringing prosperity to depressed southern Illinois. What does this have to do with conservation or ecological restoration? It is now involved with the licensing of ATVs partly to fund public access areas for ATV riders. Nature study at 50 mph.

The commercialization of outdoor recreation in the mold of Bass Pro Shops has spread like contagion across the country. The folks of means attempt to replicate the shop with their fancy log homes along the private stretches on the Ozarks riverways. Trumping up the wilds to the farthest reach of pristine isles.

Bringing the factory to the woods. And to various degrees we are all part of the madness. My writing here is evidence of that.



 
 
  We were outnumbered - nm
  Posted by: paddledad on Jan-23-14 4:32 PM (EST)
 
 
  Outnumbered..............
  Posted by: thebob.com on Jan-23-14 6:35 PM (EST)
-- Last Updated: Jan-23-14 9:11 PM EST --

The reason you were outnumbered is because you have nothing to sell.

Those who stand to benefit most money wise, operate on the premise that the "squeaky wheel gets the grease".

The sellers are confrontational, often physically threatening, loud mouthed, and have bogus excuses. A favorite is "they're stealing out heritage"! The sellers have poor self control when anyone disagrees with their standpoint. They make efforts to stifle any responses from anyone who disagrees with their opinion by shouting them down.
They exhibit negative non verbals, and belittle others opinions. They may even express the opinion that you don't deserve, or even have the right to voice your opinion.
You aren't a local; therefore it is none of your business. It's a local river; NOT a national scenic riverway. You're just a shit disturber; they know what's best for "their" river.
Misdirection of blame from anything they do, minimilization of any problem they may be creating, denial of guilt for any wrongdoing in the issue, and projection of blame onto others are also techniques they use.

One of the power boater most verbalized "selling points" was the vast number of people they "rescued" on the river? Would that be "river dork drunks" they rescued? Never seen it happen in 50 years of paddling there! Have pulled out 40 or 50 with a throw bag, over the years.

It was reported by someone who attended the meeting that one of the sellers, or some of the seller's "cronies" made comments such as "I'd never listen to anyone who was wearing anything made by Patagonia"! , "I don't think you can, or even know how to paddle a canoe"! ,"Do you ride a bicycle; what if they shut down all the roads"?
Say what???!!!
As if any of those had anything to do with the issue.
Misdirection.........get you on the defensive; not focused on the issue.
Might as well argue with an ignorant ass who says, "Your momma wears combat boots"!

Some of the techniques used are the same techniques that are "taught" to those who engage in civil disobedience, and political protests. The person in charge (Rep. Smith?) seldom engage in such activities; they stand on the sidelines & direct others, or are not present. Other actions, usually engaged in when out of view can be getting into your face, verbal intimidation, fake bear charges, belly bumps, pushing, or spitting at you. In extreme circumstances getting your ass kicked in the parking lot after the meeting is not out of the realm of possibility.
The leader/organizer won't be involved, or present.

As a member of a civil disturbance/riot control training committee in the U.S.Army; I taught National Guard personnel how to recognize some of the exact same techniques described & how to avoid getting in one on one situations/confrontations with those who have an agenda. Agendas are "most often" promoted by those in political offices,seeking political offices, local power brokers, and the sellers of goods.

It would be a mistake to think that a lot of the power boaters who attend those meeting
are just a bunch of good old boy, and incapable of being organized by those with agendas.
Show me the money!!!

BOB

P.S. Must read: Go to Missouri Whitewater Associations website, and read reports made by some paddlers who did attend the meeting.
Many parking spaces were blocked by power boater's trailers. Limiting parking for non power boaters was purely coincidental I'm sure.
People (some MWA members/paddlers) were turned away from the meeting by police, who stated that the meeting place was full, and nobody else would be admitted. A public meeting where people are turned away from the meeting??? Say what!!!

 
 
  Bob
  Posted by: vic on Jan-23-14 11:26 PM (EST)
-- Last Updated: Jan-24-14 12:39 AM EST --

Your descriptions above are right on target. Have seen that happen, and have had some of that happen to me at public meetings and hearings here in Iowa.

Of course that was on different topics, but I was a well known opponent testifying against many of the moneyed interests when these things happened. This included being corralled by tea partiers in the parking lot outside the statehouse after testifying against tax "incentives" benefiting big business and using that money for more progressive tax policies for low and middle income families.

There was one public hearing at the statehouse I especially recall about four years ago. Someone, never publicly identified, paid to have busloads of people brought to the statehouse galleries from around the state. There were reports that there was plenty of beer on some of the buses. People in the galleries became very abusive and shouted down anyone who offered testimony with which they disagreed. After issuing many warnings to the galleries the Speaker of the House cleared the chamber of all spectators who were not signed up to provide testimony. It was the only way they were able to get all the testimony on the record.

 
 
  Thanks!
  Posted by: gremmie on Jan-24-14 9:28 AM (EST)
To everyone who presented testimony and attended the meetings. It took some juevos.

Couple stories come to mind. While eating breakfast with some fellow paddlers at a cafe in Eminence we struck up conversation with one of the local canoe/kayak/raft outfitters whose family was connected with the cafe. He was complaining about the NPS barring access to some of the local caves along the Current River. He boasted about plans he was "developing" with other locals to take a cutting torch to the steel barricades. I am sure it was just BS blustering, but it does exemplify the insensitivity of some of the locals -- not just to the environment but to the customer base that supports them. Gimme yur money, then git out and keep yur mouth shut 'bout managing "our" river.

More disturbing, on this same spring trip while driving south of Salem toward Eminence on twisty HWY 19, a young local guy driving an aged Ford Explorer attempted to mate my truck's rear bumper with his front bumper for several white knuckle miles. I maintained a steady, safe speed while he made no attempt to pass (OK there are not many passing opportunities on that road.) I thought the best course was to not pull over and to not speed up or slow down. I have no idea what his motive or state of mind was. I was carrying a canoe on top of my truck, licensed in IL. Do some of the locals have it in for anyone bringing their own boat down there? Was this guy totally wasted on meth? Was he carrying? I didn't want to find out.

Maybe I'm just paranoid. Reading Daniel Woodrell's 'The Outlaw Album', short stories of freaky Ozark psychopath outlaws, and Michael Cuneo's 'Almost Midnight: An American Story of Murder and Redemption',("The haunting true story of a triple murder in the Ozarks, two lovers on the lam, and a death-row inmate saved by the pope." Amazon), likely planted the seeds of dark thoughts.

But, for the most part, my encounters with the locals have been benign and friendly. So, I am not attempting to poison the well here by painting the locals with one brush. But this does not preempt them from painting all the outsiders with one brush in an atmosphere of mistrust and misunderstanding generated by local political and business leaders. Electing such a small man like Jason Smith to Congress tells something -- not good.

Anyway, I'm very glad I am not working for the NPS and attempting to find some balance in this management plan in an environment where individualism reigns and where any concept of the common good never took deep root. And I really hope that none of this pack mentality rhetoric escalates to an increase in violent or destructive actions.

 
 
  Cave assess.............
  Posted by: thebob.com on Jan-24-14 12:31 PM (EST)
-- Last Updated: Jan-24-14 6:35 PM EST --

Cave access was barred to prevent rampant vandalism; to assess the current bat population, to protect healthy bat colonies, and to protect native species from "kill it for the thrill of it" river dorks.

Many caves in Missouri are now barred due to what is known as "white nose syndrome" in bats. It is killing thousands of bats, which is not good news for bats, or for humans either. Bats feed on insects, and a small colony can kill thousands of insects in one night's feeding. Rather have more bats, or more mosquitos & flys???

They are trying to find a solution to the problem. It makes it more difficult to do so,when humans expose the bats to so many different things that may cause, contribute too, or worsen the disease.
If the bats are disturbed when sick; they will lose precious energy they need to survive.
Analogy: How would you like to have a bunch of low IQ, drunken asses, tromping around in an operating room where you're being operated on? How about in a lab where your blood tests are being analyzed to determine a virus/disease you may have? The bats are in the cave; the cave is the operating rooom/lab.

Guy in restaurant is blow hard, ignorant, know nothing, ass! Mentality is, "I can go where I want, when I want, and do whatever I want
It's my cave, my river, my spring, me, me, me !!!

BOB

 
 
  Nothing too surprising
  Posted by: paddledad on Jan-24-14 1:56 PM (EST)
I've been around this culture a long time. My Grandfather's hardscrabble farm backed up to a National Forest. Only they didn't call it that or the Mark Twain. It was only known as "government land". Even as a child I understood that it was not always government land. Now the culture has a certain political faction to back them and they’re feeling pretty powerful.

The opposition at this meeting was more the "get off my lawn" types than anything else. I will say the comment period was just about split and that’s what was recorded, but Bob’s comment about the squeaky wheel is exactly right. The exuberance and just general rudeness was pretty one sided.

Hundreds tried to get in and parking was really limited. I took my son to see the process and we had to park about a quarter mile away. A cop tried to save us the long walk by stating the building was at capacity and we’d have to just stand outside once we got there, which was false. I’m sure many just left. Parking was such an issue because, in addition to all the equestrians, the local boys had made the 3 hour trip WITH their jet boats hours earlier and had taken over most of the parking adjacent the to the building. One proudly proclaimed “the boats are right outside, we’ll be glad to answer any questions you have”. The same person ended his 1 minute allotment with a request to all bow our heads as he gave a prayer. The loudest whooping and hollering came when Rep. Jason Smith’s lapdog spoke. “He will NEVER vote for this”. Simply put, they’re willing to work harder and do more to get their way. I give them credit.

There’s now even a new wave in the rhetoric, though. This Big Spring Wilderness Study will probably go down the tubes (funding is iffy at best), but a large contingent seem to think the time is ripe for us to go back to 1963. The ONSR should be given back to state and local officials. From their comments, they really believe this is possible so remember, folks, this is not a Missouri issue. Congress needs to hear.

The lesson to my son was that this is the way it works and, for that, it was a good evening. I asked him how he would feel if they had come in and taken Grandpa’s land or our farm now. How many generations would those feelings last? From his feedback, I know that he understands the entire issue better than the vast majority at the meeting.


 

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