Table of Contents

• Everglades City Tour Boat Wake concern - OldGator - Mar-21-13 11:02 AM
  • I hate to say it but - slushpaddler - Mar-21-13 11:12 AM
  • if on plane - rrose - Mar-21-13 11:17 AM
    • Concern is this location - OldGator - Mar-21-13 11:30 AM
      • sounds like a decent place to - slushpaddler - Mar-21-13 11:54 AM
        • Why blame me? - OldGator - Mar-21-13 12:13 PM
          • Show me the money............... - thebob.com - Mar-21-13 1:02 PM
          • So what kind of advice do you want? - Canuka - Mar-21-13 1:04 PM
          • I'm not blaming you - slushpaddler - Mar-21-13 1:11 PM
            • Let's get back to the question - OldGator - Mar-21-13 1:58 PM
            • Well said - guideboatguy - Mar-21-13 2:58 PM
              • absolutely - slushpaddler - Mar-21-13 4:16 PM
          • If you can't handle a breaking wave - seadart - Mar-22-13 10:41 AM
  • We just got back, from a trip, in .... - jackl - Mar-21-13 4:52 PM
    • Thanks Jack - OldGator - Mar-21-13 5:45 PM
      • I have to add; the posters above..... - jackl - Mar-21-13 6:05 PM
    • oh good grief - slushpaddler - Mar-22-13 10:10 AM
  • Hey Old Gator. Don't pay any attention - roanguy - Mar-21-13 6:36 PM
    • that's cool roanguy - slushpaddler - Mar-22-13 10:13 AM
  • swamped - yellowsole - Mar-21-13 6:43 PM
    • Show me the money...........part II - thebob.com - Mar-22-13 10:32 AM
      • Bob hit the nail on the head - Canuka - Mar-22-13 12:01 PM
  • our experience in that waterway - willowleaf - Mar-22-13 12:53 PM
  • On a different note: - jackl - Mar-22-13 7:01 PM
    • policy reviews - tdaniel - Mar-23-13 11:09 AM

Messages in this Topic

 

	I hate to say it but   Posted by: slushpaddler on Mar-21-13 11:12 AM (EST)
	...if it's not a "no wake zone" I'm not sure you can expect anything to be done. I've paddled a few locations with tour boats and when they slow down is when the wake grows (I enjoy surfing it). Fortunately, they're big and easy to spot and avoid. Law of tonnage is always good to follow.

 

	if on plane   Posted by: rrose on Mar-21-13 11:17 AM (EST)
	boats often leave relatively smaller wakes than if they are plowing past. If you can get angled right, then there is an opportunity to ride some wake to help propel you faster. If either of the above doesn't suit you, then get perpendicular to the wake and paddle through them as you come in contact. It isn't nearly as bad as they may look. Keep loose hips. I've paddle the area several times and haven't had any tour boats come by. Your average power boater may come around in channels but usually slow down when they see you, which is sometimes at the last second as they round the bends. Great paddling area. Be sure to check out the Smallwoods store museum.

 

	Concern is this location   Posted by: OldGator on Mar-21-13 11:30 AM (EST)
	This problem has to do with this specific location and where the wake is amplified as it hits the shallow mud flats and even when one take evasive action the wake can be significant enough to break over the bow of a sea kayak. Out in open water I do not have a problem with boat wakes. The tour boats are Carolina Skiffs traveling with approximately 6 tourist plus the guide.

 

	sounds like a decent place to   Posted by: slushpaddler on Mar-21-13 11:54 AM (EST)
	develop your skills.

 

	Why blame me?   Posted by: OldGator on Mar-21-13 12:13 PM (EST)
	I find the responses to my post a little disappointing. I have been paddling for decades and my ability is not the question. For those of you that have not paddled this waterway you do not know the situation I am talking about.

 

	Show me the money...............   Posted by: thebob.com on Mar-21-13 1:02 PM (EST)
	-- Last Updated: Mar-21-13 1:05 PM EST -- How much do you think each tourist pays for their Carolina skiff tour? Tourists generate revenue; the tours will likely continue, at speed of their choice, as long as they generate enough revenue. Your options are probably limited to dealing with the wakes, seeking another paddling venue, or not paddling during the peak tourist touring hours. BOB

 

	So what kind of advice do you want?   Posted by: Canuka on Mar-21-13 1:04 PM (EST)
	Is the problem that you can't see them coming and the wake grabs you by surprise? Last year in the Aransas channel near Corpus Christi, a sea-going tug went by us in our sea kayaks and that thing was pushing water like there was no tomorrow. We were right over the mud flats next to the reeds, we saw the huge double wave coming, got perpendicular to it, rode over the first roller, punched through the second one and that was it. No big deal. Yeah, punching right through the second one was a wet experience, but that's why you wear a skirt. What else can you do but stay aware of your surroundings and position yourself properly?

 

	I'm not blaming you   Posted by: slushpaddler on Mar-21-13 1:11 PM (EST)
	Sorry if it came across that way. Unfortunately IMO this is just reality. If there isn't a no-wake zone and the tour is keeping to it's route, I'm not sure you have any recourse other than to accept it or paddle somewhere else. I can think of a few locations where I no longer paddle because of things out of my control. I'm sure I don't understand the specific situation because I've never paddled there. But that doesn't change the above.

 

	Let's get back to the question   Posted by: OldGator on Mar-21-13 1:58 PM (EST)
	My question to paddlers that have taken this route is: What has your experience been and do you have any concerns with the behavior of these tour boats traveling at high speed and not slowing down for paddlers. I may not have any recourse but I would like to hear from those who have paddled this route and what their experience has been.

 

	Well said   Posted by: guideboatguy on Mar-21-13 2:58 PM (EST)
	-- Last Updated: Mar-21-13 4:41 PM EST -- I've never seen nor heard of a situation where power boats of any kind are "expected" to slow down when passing paddlers (I should add that an obvious exception to this is on small rivers where boats pass at very close range and there are blind curves, etc.). Some power boaters DO slow down, perhaps out of misguided courtesy (I say "misguided" because usually it makes the wakes bigger unless they slow down much more than what's remotely reasonable), or often I think, just as a way of communicating to the paddler that they DO see them and aren't going to run them over when passing at very close range. But legally, there's no reason for them to do anything other than avoid hitting you, and it sounds like in this case a collision is out of the question. If one's "concern" about this situation is too much to bear, it really doesn't matter what anyone else thinks because all that matters is your own comfort level since all you can do to remedy the situation is paddle when the tour boats aren't running or avoid the area completely. My only "concern" about these situations, and I've seen cases that from the sound of it would be pretty similar, is about environmental damage - the effect of all those wakes eroding mud shorelines that would seldom or never see big waves in a natural setting. Boat wakes can and often do cause a lot of damage.

 

	absolutely   Posted by: slushpaddler on Mar-21-13 4:16 PM (EST)
	At first read it seems like an inappropriate place for big wakes. Personally I'd rather contend with a big tour boat than speedboats any day. I can see them easier and they're more predictable.

 

	If you can't handle a breaking wave   Posted by: seadart on Mar-22-13 10:41 AM (EST)
	over the bow of a seakayak, or the ability to maneuver with ocean going traffic near you, you don't have any business being in that location.

 

	We just got back, from a trip, in ....   Posted by: jackl on Mar-21-13 4:52 PM (EST)
	-- Last Updated: Mar-21-13 4:54 PM EST -- the 10,000 Islands, I turned on the computer, and see your message. You are 100 percent correct! We paddle the area you are talking about every year, and it is a sad fact, but the Everglades National park tour boat operators are the worst offenders and could care less about paddlers. I know exactly the area you are talking about, and it is just the opposite with most of the private power boat operators who will go out of their way to be polite. The ones that I feel sorry for are the open canoes. The only answer I can give you is to wear your skirt, and if you see the waves building up in the shallows as they alwys do, just aim into them. I am not sure, but I think those tour boats are contracted out and not operated by rangers. It might be worth checking at the headquarters. Go up to the second floor and check with the ones that issue the back country permits. If some of the posters here could experience what you are describing, they wouldn't be so quick to criticize you. Jack L

 

	Thanks Jack   Posted by: OldGator on Mar-21-13 5:45 PM (EST)
	Jack Thank you for your response it was exactly what I was looking for. While I have no problem handling the wakes, I as you are concerned about the other paddlers especially those with minimal experience and the canoes. People for all over the world paddle this waterway and they should not be treated this way and go home with this bad experience. You are correct the park tour boats are contracted out and are not run by park rangers. I have just started a dialog with the park administration about my concerns and hope that I have more response to this post that I can show to the park service. My goal is simple I would like to make paddling a more enjoyable experience for all!

 

	I have to add; the posters above.....   Posted by: jackl on Mar-21-13 6:05 PM (EST)
	-- Last Updated: Mar-21-13 7:58 PM EST -- don't have a clue as to what you experienced. When the tide is low in that area, if you are not in the channel, you are only in a few inches of water for a hundred feet or so on either side of the channel. Like most responsible paddlers, I like to give the power boaters the right of way that they deserve, and not get in their way, and hence keep the hell out of the channel, but then I or paddlers like me have to suffer the consequences of the large build up of the breaking waves in the shallows. It is a losing proposition Jack L

 

	oh good grief   Posted by: slushpaddler on Mar-22-13 10:10 AM (EST)
	-- Last Updated: Mar-22-13 10:18 AM EST -- No one criticized old gator, people just offered their input. Gator - if you feel I was personally criticizing you, I apologize. Jackl, to pretend that no one knows what they're talking about just because they aren't familiar with that stretch is flawed logic. There are paddlers of all aptitudes in this forum. Some of us have paddled in areas with 200' cliffs, unpredictable depths littered with stone, combined with tour boats that can pin you against the rocks - and that's in calm waters. I could be wrong but all I saw in the posts above were people unfamiliar with the specific area, but familiar with situations regarding large craft, and their suggestions in what one can do to deal with all that.

 

	Hey Old Gator. Don't pay any attention   Posted by: roanguy on Mar-21-13 6:36 PM (EST)
	to Slushpuppy! He is the "know it all" of P-net. Or likes to think he is. He likes to think he rules the roost, but he doesn't dare put a profile on. Guy

 

	that's cool roanguy   Posted by: slushpaddler on Mar-22-13 10:13 AM (EST)
	-- Last Updated: Mar-22-13 10:14 AM EST -- Toss out my posts because I don't have a profile (of course, profiles are only as honest as the people who write them, and still subjective) and because I've gotten under your skin. I'm fine with that. But I'd suggest you move over to B&B when you're ready to perform character assassination on the remaining people in this thread who were in general agreement or had similar responses as mine. Threads in these forums shouldn't be about the personalities, they should be about the OP topic.

 

	swamped   Posted by: yellowsole on Mar-21-13 6:43 PM (EST)
	I was swamped by one in the back country. There was no where to hide. He never looked back.

 

	Show me the money...........part II   Posted by: thebob.com on Mar-22-13 10:32 AM (EST)
	-- Last Updated: Mar-22-13 11:28 AM EST -- I believe the boat tours in question are run by concessionaire Everglades National Park Boat Services Co.The owner/operator of the company in 2009 was Sammy Hamilton, Jr., who just happened to be the "Mayor of Everglades City", Florida. All officers on the Board of Directors of the company were/are Hamilton family members. In 2009, the National Park Service awarded the company a contract for 10 years. Park Service also awarded the company a contract for 5 years at a second site, Flamingo, at the park's south end. Hamilton has been running boat tours in the Everglades for 40 years. Obviously, the boat touring business is good. Recent history suggests a rocky relationship between the company, and the federal government? Obviously not rocky enough to keep the Park Service from awarding new contracts? The park service attempted to open up bids for the contracts, but a federal lawsuit by Hamilton cancelled that idea.The Mayor of Everglades City maintained control. Evidently the U.S. Coast Guard having fined the company $60.000.00 after an accident involving one of their boats had no effect on the contract? Hamilton had been working on an extension to an expired contract for the past 16 years. Collier county commisioners have long supported Hamilton's boat tours, and played a part in his contract's renewal, at Hamilton's request. Combined annual gross revenue for the 2 sites up for bid was $1,800,000.00 (in 2006). Probably worth triple that amount now. "Just the name Everglades National Park means millions of dollars to Everglades City", Hamilton said. "Having this concession in "local" hands is great". Tour costs are $42.50 per person for those above 12 years of age. A gift shop is available for tour customers. Tourists may purchase t-shirts, hats, suntan oil, sunglasses, picture, postcards, painting, snacks, books, and other souvenir gee gaws. One boat load of 6 adult tourists; taking an hour & 45 minute boat tour equals about $255.00 profit. Boat tours leave every 30 minutes, from 8:30 am to 5:00 pm, 365 days a year. Source: Naples, Florida Daily News The tourists like a snappy pace on the tour; they have short attention spans, and want to move on down the road the the next "stellar attraction". Concession operators love a snappy pace. Faster tours = more tours = more money! The Park Service probably likes a snappy pace; they getting a cut of the $$$ action. Let us know how your complaint works out for you.

 

	Bob hit the nail on the head   Posted by: Canuka on Mar-22-13 12:01 PM (EST)
	It's all about money. Money always f***s everything up. Mayor of a tiny little backwater town and family controlling everything? Where have I heard that before? Sad reality.

 

	our experience in that waterway   Posted by: willowleaf on Mar-22-13 12:53 PM (EST)
	We paddled there during our Everglades trip a year ago last month and know exactly what you mean. We were staying at Glade Haven and, instead of our usual kayaks, we rented a low-sided MR Adventure 16 canoe to paddle from there to Chokolosee and environs. Encountered several of said tourist boats, tearing through. Fortunately, we're used to sharing the big industrial rivers back home in PA and the wakes and clapotis produced by everything from jetskis and powerboats full of drunks to diesel powered "paddlewheel" river boats and massive tugs pushing coal barges, so we instinctively respond to approaching engine noise by orienting our craft perpendicular to the oncoming tsunamis. Reacting thus saved us from a certain gunwale overwash and perhaps even a capsize during those Glades outings, but I could not help but imagine what effect such wakes would have on a group of amateur day paddlers in that channel.

 

	On a different note:   Posted by: jackl on Mar-22-13 7:01 PM (EST)
	If you or anyone else is still in the neighborhood and thinking of paddling the Turner River, be aware that you'll run out of water half way through the second mile long mangrove tunnel. The water level is bad this year You still can get several miles of wonderful nature paddling. There are two mother gators with new hatchlings, that you can glide by, along with some big ones that will gladly share the little amount of water with you within an arms length. We paddled so close to a black crowned night heron, that I could have patted it, and it never moved. If you paddle on the east side of the Tamiami Trail, their are lots of gators including another mother with babys, and the big old resident bull that is king of that area. jack L

 

	policy reviews   Posted by: tdaniel on Mar-23-13 11:09 AM (EST)
	I don't know if this is universal with the nps but here in wv,where the nps manages the new and gauley rivers,the nps has annual meetings about how the park is run, I think that would be a great time to suggest a change. Here in wv those meetings are open to the public. Its not always about how much you squeak but when and where you squeak as well. If you are part of a paddling group in southern florida I'd invite the park superintendent to one of your meetings to speak about the park and in a very low key way voice your concerns to him or her as well, either way you might get the situation to improve. Build a few bridges.

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