Suggestions for best "rough water" kayak
Posted by: acroreef on Aug-06-07 1:08 PM (EST) Category: unassigned
I live in Michigan and want to purchase a kayak capable of the rough conditions on the great lakes. Which kayaks are recommended for rough conditions? (I am looking for something for only 1 day trips, so storage capacity is not a concern). Thanks to all who respond.
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To go straight in rough conditions|
Posted by: sternsquirt on Aug-06-07 1:16 PM (EST)
and make mileage or to play and manuever in rough conditions is something that will help narrow it down.
more info needed|
Posted by: suzanneh on Aug-06-07 1:41 PM (EST)
Best for me, my size and abilities might not be best for you.
Posted by: angstrom on Aug-06-07 1:43 PM (EST)
Rough Water Day Boats|
Posted by: wilsoj2 on Aug-06-07 1:50 PM (EST)
Among the boats that are widely considered to be capable and enjoyable day boats are:
Posted by: old_user on Aug-06-07 1:56 PM (EST)
I paddle a pintail in the great lakes, here in Northern MI. Not the fastest boat in the bunch but it's made for rough seas; maneuverable and also roomy enough for weekend trips (longer if you ack like a backpacker). And in reality, in rough seas it can keep pace with most other boats.
Posted by: redmond on Aug-06-07 2:03 PM (EST)
My Sirocco is great in the rough stuff.
Posted by: Dr_Disco on Aug-06-07 2:16 PM (EST)
Designed for day trips in rough water. Nice video:
Lets look at variables|
Posted by: salty on Aug-06-07 2:36 PM (EST)
Lots of good kayaks, some listed above. But many more lesser know boats around the mud ball are also excellent.
the ones made for rough conditions|
Posted by: LeeG on Aug-06-07 2:33 PM (EST)
Your question is a little like going to a shoe store and asking which ones are best for running and there's a dozen to chose from. Ok,,now what.
rough water kayaker?|
Posted by: jtmusiel on Aug-06-07 3:36 PM (EST)
Without your profile, we have no idea your background/experience, but getting a "rough water capable" kayak won't make you "rough water capable." Generally, the better boats for such purposes will require more skills to be mastered to get the full potential out of the kayak. The same kayaks with an unskilled paddler can be dangerous.
Posted by: old_user on Aug-06-07 5:42 PM (EST)
Eskia on Lake Erie|
Posted by: ness on Aug-06-07 8:35 PM (EST)
I paddle a 16 ft. Necky Eskia in rough stuff on Lake Erie. It handles chop and waves very well.
Artic Tern on Lake Erie|
Posted by: mcyak on Aug-08-07 2:43 PM (EST)
On the flip side to Ness's boat, the tern (and Ness will attest to this) simply rides way too high in the water. The high volumn on this hard chine design is a bear to deal with in sine and swells. Go with a lower volumn (maby multichine?) if you can get away with it.
If you need to ask this question...|
Posted by: jackl on Aug-07-07 6:30 AM (EST)
I don't think you are ready for rough water yet
Posted by: old_user on Aug-07-07 7:03 AM (EST)
Paddling in rougher water is 90% the paddler and maybe 10% the boat. I have paddled more than once in fairly rough conditions offshore when I was at my limit, my boat was far from its limit, and watched better paddlers in lesser boats paddle circles around me.
And, A Good One At That. :)|
Posted by: sing on Aug-07-07 7:15 AM (EST)
Posted by: old_user on Aug-07-07 12:12 PM (EST)
I don't often find myself agreeing with Jack, but the safest rough water kayak is the kayak sitting on the beach when it's too rough to go out.
that's not really so|
Posted by: old_user on Aug-07-07 6:00 PM (EST)
Going out ill-prepared, significantly inexperienced or above your skill level isn't smart. Legions of kayakers ply rough waters to enjoy paddling in it and increase their abilities. See the distinction?
Posted by: old_user on Aug-07-07 9:34 PM (EST)
what I've seen in my life are risk takers taking needless risks ... sortof like practicing having a head on collision at 25 mph to better prepare yourself for the real thing at 60 mph.
Posted by: old_user on Aug-08-07 8:41 AM (EST)
Posted by: old_user on Aug-08-07 11:58 AM (EST)
Once one begins grading risk (i.e. needless vs. calculated) you've crossed a line in order to rationalize risky behavior.
Posted by: angstrom on Aug-08-07 12:06 PM (EST)
"To support those missions, training is a big part of the job as well, said Coast Guard Senior Chief Petty Officer Gordon Muse, who is the base's top enlisted man. "If we are not doing missions, then training is very big," he explains. "If there's nothing else to do, then we do training."
Posted by: old_user on Aug-09-07 11:44 AM (EST)
The son of a good friend is a BM1 and is the skipper of a 47-foot MLB on the Oregon Coast.
And by that standard of "mild"|
Posted by: old_user on Aug-09-07 12:26 PM (EST)
none of us are out on rough days, either.
Posted by: old_user on Aug-09-07 2:10 PM (EST)
That is not true....|
Posted by: seadart on Aug-09-07 2:54 PM (EST)
I have a friend who is a Coastie who practices in life boats at the mouth of the Columbia river in Hellacious wind/ swell events. The waves there are enormous.
too much fun|
Posted by: old_user on Aug-09-07 2:57 PM (EST)
You guys are having way too much fun with this and I can well understand how important it is to you all to continue living in your alternative reality.
you replied to your own post|
Posted by: old_user on Aug-09-07 3:09 PM (EST)
How are Manitou & Recluse by Betsie Bay?|
Posted by: mcwood4 on Aug-07-07 7:12 AM (EST)
As long as this question is being asked I would like to know how the Manitou and Recluse models by Betsie Bay handle the rougher Great Lakes comditions.
Posted by: old_user on Aug-07-07 3:33 PM (EST)
My BBK valkyrie handles Lake Superior fine. Sometimes it's a struggle to keep the boat from broaching on steep following waves, but that's not unusual. I've never paddled the larger BBK boats, but my guess is that they're not that different, assuming your size is within their intended uses.
Manitou & Recluse|
Posted by: jaybabina on Aug-08-07 8:30 AM (EST)
boats to consider:|
Posted by: old_user on Aug-07-07 1:32 PM (EST)
Posted by: old_user on Aug-07-07 2:12 PM (EST)
"most skilled and experienced boaters do not intentionally go out in rough weather because it's not really a wise thing to do."
there is hope !!!|
Posted by: old_user on Aug-07-07 3:48 PM (EST)
You and your friends will be glad to learn that a portion of our tax dollars go to a federal agency called the Coast Guard.
Posted by: old_user on Aug-07-07 4:12 PM (EST)
Anyone who takes more risk than I do is an idiot. Anyone who takes less risk than I do is a coward.
Posted by: rick_s on Aug-07-07 4:16 PM (EST)
Taking the advice|
Posted by: old_user on Aug-07-07 5:03 PM (EST)
It is now raining outside and forecast for electrical storms so I'm still in the office as driving home in these conditions would potentially create problems for the emergency services.
Again with the fricken|
Posted by: old_user on Aug-10-07 10:15 AM (EST)
what is bad weather?|
Posted by: scottb on Aug-07-07 4:45 PM (EST)
that could mean a lot of different things to a lot of different people.
Posted by: bowler1 on Aug-07-07 6:28 PM (EST)
To address the issue above about not paddling in rough water I disagree...I look for the days with small craft advisories. To me that is the first indicator that it may be a good day to go out on the water. Some people actually seek out storms and rough water, but are still safe about it.
Why not others?|
Posted by: salty on Aug-09-07 9:09 PM (EST)
Definitely the Chatham's, but also Impex models, Foster models, Kajak Sport, Valley's, Tempests other models, etc.
Posted by: old_user on Aug-10-07 3:32 PM (EST)
almost swallowed that condescension
Rough water boats|
Posted by: haresfur on Aug-07-07 9:32 PM (EST)
I think there are a few boats that excel in rough water in the right hands but are kind of tender for many paddlers. But there are plenty of kayaks designed for rough conditions that are very well behaved, relatively efficient, and fun to paddle in mild conditions. For example I know people who use Tempests for beginner teaching boats.
Posted by: bryanhansel on Aug-08-07 11:06 AM (EST)
to look for a used plastic Skerray or Avocet.
Posted by: old_user on Aug-10-07 1:53 AM (EST)
a lot of people on this forum demonstrate a great deal of respect for your understanding and advice regarding boats and paddling in general.
Posted by: salty on Aug-10-07 4:06 AM (EST)
Look, I have huge respect for Dennis!! The man has done a lot for the sport and he's the real deal. I believe he would agree fully with me here that his boats, though excellent examples, are NOT the only options for rough water kayaks!!
There Is "Predictability..."|
Posted by: sing on Aug-10-07 4:51 AM (EST)
to certain answers to certain questions by certain people. But, in fairness, it ain't just the "star strucked" crowd though. I think if one has a different opinion, or info of additional value, then just post it up.
Posted by: bowler1 on Aug-10-07 5:19 AM (EST)
Not That I Care (My Favorite Line)...|
Posted by: sing on Aug-10-07 5:50 AM (EST)
Face it Bowler|
Posted by: old_user on Aug-10-07 9:52 PM (EST)
you're just starstruck and infatuated. ya BCU butt kisser, you.
Posted by: eel on Aug-10-07 8:33 AM (EST)
rough water boats|
Posted by: jonsprag1 on Aug-10-07 10:32 AM (EST)
I'm assuming that your original question has been answered---there are a number of boats, both british and american which meet the criteria of being "good" in "rough" water and they have been listed in the posts above---there may be others, equally as good, which have not been listed since. But you shouldn't ignore the advice about staying on the beach if the water and weather is above your skill level(if you have to ask it probably is) but just what your skill level is will change significantly over time. I used to think anything more than a ripple and any passage over 200 yards was dangerous. As my skill level increased and as I pushed the limits, very incremently I might add, I became more comfortable with so-called rough conditions---My idea of rough water now is significantly changed from what it was 7 years ago. Still, there is a limit when I will leave my boat on the beach and do something else for the day--and when I do "push the limits" I do so in a very controlled manner, making sure I have bailout points along my route where I can get off the water if I have to--also in those types of conditions I don't go out alone but with experienced companions and am also fully equipped with appropriate clothing and gear. And still there are times when I stay on the beach---am I afraid to go out then?---yup you bet.
My wife is away for two weeks....|
Posted by: seadart on Aug-10-07 2:59 PM (EST)
I've got a big block of styrofoam in the garage and and something is taking shape .... wonder what kind of cool aide i have been drinking.
Posted by: sing on Aug-10-07 4:04 PM (EST)
You realize there is new, higher density EPS that is reputedly water impermeable (minimizes ding and repair worries related to water infiltration). More expensive but maybe worth it when a test block gets shaped and approved in dummy pilot tests. :)
Posted by: Celia on Aug-10-07 8:01 AM (EST)
Posted by: salty on Aug-10-07 10:45 AM (EST)
For the record I think NDK boats are outstanding and I have many many nautical miles in them! I have owned and paddled many Brit boats and I like them. What I'm trying to get across, and doing so poorly, is that there are many great kayaks in the world and certainly more than three possibilities to the original posters question! You'll note that my first response focused on design variables rather than brands.
Question on Variables|
Posted by: eel on Aug-10-07 11:04 AM (EST)
In your first post you mentioned full chines and an reserve of stability. Did you mean they tend to have a hard chine or just a well defined which may be hard or somewhat rounded chine, and what does this "give" a boat that makes it a good rough water boat. When you say extra reserve stability do you mean a big "shoulder" when the boat is leaned at a certain point or just a nice linear feel that enables you to lean the boat over and back easily?
Posted by: salty on Aug-10-07 11:14 AM (EST)
"I" think boats with a full chine profile throughout most of their length, regardless of whether the edges are sharp or soft, combined with a decent amount or rocker, makes for a better rough water boat. These variables make these boats less effecive for straight line calm water paddling. As you say, this stability on edge is helpful in rough conditions as it gives the skilled paddler something to work off of, and the less skilled paddler some confidence. We see these design traits in many boats including models from NDK's, Valley, Necky, WS, Impex, Kajak Sport, Mariner, CD, etc...........
Well made point|
Posted by: jaybabina on Aug-10-07 3:13 PM (EST)
You have to remember before NDK existed there were boats considered to be rough water boats like the Nordcapp. Why, because Frank Goodman used it around the Cape of Good Horn. It also had low stability which meant that it required skill and that also fortified the reputation. Derek crossed the north sea in an Orion - must be a good rough water boat. Then some unknown kid crossed all the Great Lakes in a Necky plastic piece of crap and the kayking world shut up about boats for awhile.
Which side of the state are you on?|
Posted by: kwikle on Aug-10-07 9:34 AM (EST)
If you are on the east side, Riversidekayak.com is your best bet.
only 3 boats|
Posted by: bowler1 on Aug-10-07 1:18 PM (EST)
My only point in narrowing the field down this much (which is probably too narrow) is that if the paddler is a beginner, then the recommendations of Nigel Foster Legend, Nordkapp etc. probably are not optimal. Great rough water boats for sure, but not necessarily "confidence inspiring" beginners boats.
Posted by: angstrom on Aug-10-07 2:57 PM (EST)
If you want a boat for rough conditions, why not a whitewater creekboat? You won't get anywhere in a hurry, but you'll be bobbing along like a cork.
though it could be a Birt boat...|
Posted by: wilsoj2 on Aug-10-07 3:00 PM (EST)
Pyranha makes great whitewater boats ;-)
Creeker probably best|
Posted by: Celia on Aug-10-07 3:17 PM (EST)
Pretty skimpy space for that jug of hot tea in a playboat.
Gone from Syllabus|
Posted by: eel on Aug-10-07 3:28 PM (EST)
I should not mention this, but notice the whole hot drink thing in terms of being part of kit was radically changed in new syllabus? As in removed and replaced with something requiring the demonstration of judgment as to what to have. Good stuff in new syllabus seems to me.
New BCU 4* re food and drink|
Posted by: wilsoj2 on Aug-10-07 4:19 PM (EST)
From the Trainer notes:
Lots of room for tea if you do|
Posted by: old_user on Aug-10-07 7:09 PM (EST)
what I'm doing this Sunday. My British designed, Canadian built, and American owned Foster Shadow will be towing my Seda Creeker 'til I get to the spot I intend to surf. Then I'll switch boats.
My God, my Kool Aid index just keeps|
Posted by: dogmatycus on Aug-10-07 3:24 PM (EST)
rising. I have a brit river boat, too!
My Brit Cred Went Down...|
Posted by: sing on Aug-10-07 4:00 PM (EST)
got rid of Mega. Got rid of the Pyranhnas. But I also got rid of the Go-Native stuff.
When I drink alone|
Posted by: sternsquirt on Aug-10-07 11:20 PM (EST)
I prefer to be by myself. (GT and the Destroyers)
And now for something completely differe|
Posted by: old_user on Aug-14-07 4:38 PM (EST)
I paddle an Innova Solar II in rough water, out here on the Pacific. And I mean rough: 5' dumping waves, washing machine turbos, boomers, strong head winds, Great White sharks, etc.. The boat flexes (like a white water raft) and takes a heck of a lot to capsize.