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  Posted by: chodups on Mar-31-06 4:43 PM (EST)
   Category: unassigned 

What the heck is it? Polyester fabric instead of glass, yeah?

When is it used?
Where is it used?

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  Posted by: LeeG on Mar-31-06 5:06 PM (EST)

When is it used?

Where is it used?
on kayaks,canoes

to make a laminate with better bash resistance,poormans kevlar

cheap,keeps a laminate from fracturing apart once the resin matrix is fractured,think of Wenonas TuffWeave

doesn't sound as fancy as Aramid/Kevlar, not as tough as kevlar, polyester sounds like a leisure suit do it's called diolene.

A polyester/s-glass laminate would be a mighty tough material. If you want light weight you gotta use lighter materials. Trying to make a light glass/diolene kayak would make for a flexible laminate.
  Posted by: old_user on Mar-31-06 5:18 PM (EST)
Diolen will get fuzzy like kevlar if sanded or abraded.
Why is it so common in British boats and not in North American manufactured kayaks?
  they're cheap
  Posted by: LeeG on Mar-31-06 5:53 PM (EST)
-- Last Updated: Mar-31-06 6:12 PM EST --

and it works,,I mean frugal.

  Seems to be used.......
  Posted by: chodups on Mar-31-06 5:19 PM (EST)
in some Brit boats. P&H and others? Maybe just used in some components but not others?
  it's a kit bag
  Posted by: LeeG on Mar-31-06 6:11 PM (EST)
between all the different fabrics,weaves, core materials,construction methods and hull shapes I think a person could make a durable and quality kayak without resorting to fancy dancy expensive materials as long as super light weight wasn't a high priority.

  Diolen is a trade name
  Posted by: old_user on Mar-31-06 8:26 PM (EST)
Headquarters in the Netherlands and is European product used in everything from seatbelts, tires, transmission and conveyor belts, ropes, high pressure hoses, and tires....oh and kayaks too. Mixed with glass, carbon or Kevlar it makes the super strong bombproof flexable hulls the Britts are famous for. Cheap...I don't think so. I think you are all wet on this one Lee
  is there a price / yd?
  Posted by: LeeG on Mar-31-06 8:38 PM (EST)
-- Last Updated: Mar-31-06 9:17 PM EST --

just curious,, speaking of fire houses I was at the zoo last week and they use old fire hoses for the animals to climb on

  I'm sure Kevlar is much more costly
  Posted by: old_user on Mar-31-06 10:59 PM (EST)
that's a given, but people seem to forget or just don't understand that there are many proprietary layups that are much stiffer, less costly and much more durable than Kevlar or Carbon. Yes they weigh more. Every maker or designer has their own reason for useing the layups and fabric that they use. The truth is in the paddling. Don't forget that the first and probably still the best sea kayaks were skin on frame and super flexable and I believe far more sea worthy than any stiff kayak out there. They were not sport boats, they were used to make a living. I'm sure members of Qajaq would agree.
  Posted by: LeeG on Mar-31-06 11:16 PM (EST)
my point was that diolene/polyester is a useful material that doesn't fracture when flexed like glass can. It's cheaper than kevlar which is more effective in resisting fracture,,therefore a frugal builder looking for a durable laminate might use diolene/polyester instead of s-glass or kevlar.

  True I suppose
  Posted by: old_user on Mar-31-06 11:36 PM (EST)
But I'm not so sure it's not a local thing and or what's on hand. Kevlar prices have gone up dramatically and I'm sure shipping overseas is and has been a consideration in just what gets used and where. I've looked at all these boats and truthfully I don't see U.S. boats being made to any higher standards than the Euro boats. Older boats seem to always looks better to me.

Only the small one man no production line shops still build from the finest materials and their prices reflect it.
  Which Brit's are you referring to?
  Posted by: bnystrom on Apr-01-06 9:14 AM (EST)
"it makes the super strong bombproof flexable hulls the Britts are famous for"

Don't you really mean "super-heavy, overly-rigid, puncture-and-fracture-prone hulls built with cheap materials"? While that's no longer true of current P&H and VSK boats, it was up until recently and it's still true of NDK.
  polyester properties
  Posted by: c2g on Mar-31-06 8:42 PM (EST)
-- Last Updated: Mar-31-06 8:50 PM EST --

It looks like it is a polyester cloth, based on what it says on the Andrea Mura sail design
Akso Nobel trade name for polyester fiber."

Here's what it says about polyester on the Sweet Composites website:

"Polyester fabric is primarily used as a cheaper substitute for Kevlarģ to impart toughness to a laminate but it does not provide as much stiffness as does Kevlar."

I used a combination of s-glass, polyester, auromat core, and e-glass to rebuild an old whitewater slalom boat. The original layup was extremely light, so I basically just build a new hull around the original layup. I've had it out a couple of times and it performs just fine.

  sweet polyester
  Posted by: LeeG on Mar-31-06 9:20 PM (EST)
7yrs ago I made that Chesapeake 16 with 4oz s-glass and 5oz polyester cloth over that,,holy crap that was a mistake as it soaked up a LOT of epoxy. There must be different weaves of polyester that soak up resin differently
  Posted by: c2g on Mar-31-06 10:25 PM (EST)
I don't remember much about how much epoxy the cloth soaked up. I do remember that the polyester seemed kind of thick compared to a comparable weight fiberglass. I tried running it about halfway up the sides, maybe a little more, then trimming it the same way you do with fiberglass. I don't know if my technique was just particularly bad that day, or if I got to it after the epoxy had cured a bit too long, or if polyester is just tougher to work with, but the results were somewhat less than stellar.

However, the rebuild was supposed to be a low-budget project, and I was doing a lot of experimenting with different things, so it seemed like a good time to try the polyester.
  more diolen info
  Posted by: c2g on Mar-31-06 9:04 PM (EST)
A quick Google search turned up a little more info:
Diolen is a polyester fabric, similar to some sewing fabrics. People have been known to use duvet covers in the deck of boats, for the pattern. Itís difficult to tear, but not as difficult as kevlar. Itís slightly easier to saturate with resin than kevlar is, and is also cheaper.
A high tenacity polyester filament yarn produced by Acordis.
100 % polyester materials such as Diolen, Trevira, etc.
Actually a polyester fabric instead of glass. Only to be used for the hull as it is very flexible, although very strong
  Posted by: LeeG on Mar-31-06 9:15 PM (EST)
the first link is a trip. Unless it's some super duper fancy polyester my guess is that it costs the same or a smidge less than fiberglass as Sweets site indicates.
Someone on this site mentioned carbon/polyester cloth as being particularly interesting.
  IMHIP diolene flexes too much
  Posted by: peter_k on Mar-31-06 9:31 PM (EST)
when you mate a stiff part (coaming) to a diolene deck you can get stress risers and spider cracking (or worse)without good design (is P&H listening?)

Diolene: approach with caution.
  You have it backwards
  Posted by: old_user on Mar-31-06 10:24 PM (EST)
the decks are glass, the hull is mixed. thus the super strong hull with a lighter deck.
  I owned a quest carbon kevlar
  Posted by: peter_k on Mar-31-06 10:55 PM (EST)
hull diolene deck. maybe P&h cleaned it up Nobody wanted to deal with my problems.
  it's only a material
  Posted by: LeeG on Mar-31-06 11:05 PM (EST)
no one is saying it's not a worthwhile material. It is. But so are knit cloths, specific applications of unidirectional materials,core materials etc. Have you seen the Necky composites? Cool stuff. When I picked up glass QCC400 without a rudder if felt as light as most kevlar kayaks. My old Express has got regular heavy roving,,works fine, beat to hell and full of cracks.
  I've never looked that close at P&H.
  Posted by: chodups on Mar-31-06 10:35 PM (EST)
Are cracks radiating from the cockpit rim a characteristic of P&H boats?
  changes over time
  Posted by: LeeG on Apr-01-06 9:25 AM (EST)
I have no idea,,I saw/paddled one P&H Sirius 5yrs ago that did not impress me with it's construction, the deck was made with glass mat and the internal footbrace mounts were too close together for the Keepers causing them to bow in,not that it wasn't ok,,just that it looked crude. Saw a different P&H last year that looked much more refined.
So the problem is we're working with a very small data base from which to draw conclusions.
On my friends Sirius a 3/8" thick chunk of gel coat chipped off the stern when it got dropped on the curb, on my first year production Chatham 18 the gel coat on the ends is so fine/brittle I've gone through to the glass from one bump on the dock edge.


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