If this topic interests you, and you haven't read my previous rolling fear factor posts, search the archives for "Fear Factor".
This week's observations:
I'm making good progress when it comes to squelching my monkey brain's constant screetching about flipping over, hanging upside down, and performing a paddle float half roll from the 90 degree position. However, I still have to work on getting comfortable with the setup position for a sweep.
The warm (almost hot) water really helps.
Going off the fear factor aspect of these weekly excercises, my paddling partner ShellBack (an avid p.net reader) gracioously offered to observe and critique as I practiced. He observed that I wasn't keeping my head down sometimes, which I corrected, and, that I was relying too heavily on the paddle over righting with my hips, which I've got to work on. An educated eye sure helps with to keep the mechanics of the roll in check while I focus on making rolling practice less fearsome.
More posts to follow..Lou
Touring Kayak Paddles
Pull-Up Strap Handle Kit
|Table of Contents|
|Messages in this Topic|
Too much "thinking" and "method"!|
Posted by: old_user on Jul-26-05 2:26 PM (EST)
Posted by: wilsoj2 on Jul-26-05 2:42 PM (EST)
tough love may work. lalleluia has been working hard and been generous enough to share the experience.
I agree Melissa|
Posted by: lalleluia on Jul-26-05 2:53 PM (EST)
that this whole matter is only in my mind.
Posted by: old_user on Jul-26-05 3:30 PM (EST)
A little patience|
Posted by: Celia on Jul-26-05 3:01 PM (EST)
And little less lecturing, maybe? It's great that someone can be comfortable enough to execute the correct manuvers for a roll within a short time of going over to start with. But it's not correct that everyone can. Irrational responses are just that - irrational, deeply seated and extremely difficult to get control over. It often takes chipping away at them.
This Sounds Great!|
Posted by: lalleluia on Jul-26-05 3:25 PM (EST)
I'm trying to visualize the Greenland maneuver. Is the paddle parallel to the boat, or have you angled it out a bit to get your hand on the hull. This sounds like a wonderful next step.
Posted by: old_user on Jul-26-05 3:46 PM (EST)
I think she may be referring to the Petrussen Maneuver a great idea.
Very difficult for some...|
Posted by: Greyak on Jul-26-05 6:16 PM (EST)
...and as with many things - equipment matters.
Skirt for Petrussen|
Posted by: gstamer on Jul-27-05 3:57 PM (EST)
The key to the Petrussen is rotating your body (including shifting around so that your butt is somewhat on the side of the seat). Roomy kayaks require little torso rotation (you can shuffle around more), narrow kayaks usually require more torso rotation since your lower body is more constricted.
Posted by: old_user on Jul-27-05 4:14 PM (EST)
I've been pulling up towards the chine. My face is about an inch underwater, a small movement with one hand pops me up to breathe. I'm sure once drysuit season returns I'll have enough buoyancy to make it easy. My akuilisaq doesn't restrict motion, but the cockpit is relatively tight
Posted by: gstamer on Jul-27-05 5:10 PM (EST)
I pull down on the hull (like performing a pull-up). This is a fairly minor point, IMO. It's more about finding the right body position that allows your head to easily clear the surface. Even your legs come into play.
Finally got it today|
Posted by: old_user on Jul-28-05 10:42 PM (EST)
I pulled out the slab of foam I put under my masik and that let me twist around far enough to make the Petrussen Maneuver work at last. I couldn't make it work with the foam in place.
all sorts of ways...|
Posted by: old_user on Jul-26-05 3:32 PM (EST)
Lose the paddle float|
Posted by: schizopak on Jul-26-05 3:49 PM (EST)
It's the Petrussen manuver and|
Posted by: Celia on Jul-26-05 4:24 PM (EST)
Re the manuver I indicated - yes it's what is in the picture. Can't tense up though - if so I put too much weight on the boat's hull and pull it back over myself. Hence making it kinda hard to get that deep breath unless I grow gills.
Not wrong but...|
Posted by: old_user on Jul-26-05 4:33 PM (EST)
I agree that the paddle float won't help too much with the blade angle (an important element). It can help with the other components.
Posted by: old_user on Jul-26-05 4:44 PM (EST)
regarding extended paddle|
Posted by: schizopak on Jul-26-05 5:08 PM (EST)
Yes it eventually becomes unneccesary but if someone is trying to learn alone, it provides them the best chance of success as it is more forgiving of poor form. Once you have the extended paddle, it can become your backup roll for learning other rolls. In regards to a diving paddle, along with pulling down/across the body, a big problem is that many people put a climbing angle on their paddle in order to sweep which results in a diving paddle.
Sure, what the heck...|
Posted by: old_user on Jul-26-05 5:48 PM (EST)
Try that too!
Float make people do pull ups!|
Posted by: Greyak on Jul-26-05 6:19 PM (EST)
That in itself is counter productive. Lack of paddle feel is secondary to the damage it does with getting a decent hip snap and timing.
I see your point.|
Posted by: lalleluia on Jul-27-05 2:55 PM (EST)
Certainly, my paddle is very different in shape from my paddle float. the reason that I'm persuiing the paddle float route is because I was able to progress to a successful roll using this method in class, and was able to roll afterwards in another class using both my boat and paddle.
Posted by: Greyak on Jul-26-05 6:29 PM (EST)
In person is always better but these are the same pointers everyone else has been giving you.
Lou, you DON'T have a rolling problem|
Posted by: Greyak on Jul-26-05 6:43 PM (EST)
Fact is - you have water related issues that prevent you from using the rolling advice you are given.
Your Point Is Well Taken|
Posted by: lalleluia on Jul-27-05 4:12 PM (EST)
It's more of an entrapment under water issue. Wet exit practice sounds like it might help.
Do it until it's boring|
Posted by: Greyak on Jul-27-05 6:01 PM (EST)
(Sorry, another long one)
Posted by: krousmon on Jul-26-05 7:28 PM (EST)
I think Lou said that|
Posted by: Celia on Jul-27-05 7:47 AM (EST)
The guy said that he knew he had to desensitise to (under)water issues several posts up. And that's what he is doing, practicing things like partial rolls etc that increase his habit and comfort at staying in the boat for a bit.
Posted by: mario on Jul-27-05 8:33 AM (EST)
Greyak gave him the best advise when he said don't practice alone.
Posted by: Celia on Jul-27-05 10:08 AM (EST)
Maybe I am mising something here, but I am not reading a huge fear of the water. It doesn't seem there is an issue with swimming, or being underwater per se, just with the specifics of waiting in the darned boat and setup etc for the roll. That is a different thing, though hardly anyone gets it.
"dominated by people...|
Posted by: Greyak on Jul-27-05 2:11 PM (EST)
Posted by: schizopak on Jul-27-05 2:25 PM (EST)
The concept that rolling is "hard" and an "advanced move" has prevented way too many paddlers from learning it. It IS easy, it IS a basic skill, and to reiterate what has been said several times, if it's hard, you're doing it wrong. I have worked with many beginner kayakers on rolling and have worked with people who are terrified of water, arm rollers, poor habits from other classes/videos, etc. Although I may had to spend an additional 15-30 minutes with them to unlearn bad habits, the basic roll came soon afterwards. Sort of like EJ's 15 minute roll guarantee, I have never had a student not learn to roll extremely quickly when taught properly.
Actually, I'm not expecting guidance|
Posted by: lalleluia on Jul-27-05 4:57 PM (EST)
although it is much appreciated.
Anything can be said to be easy.|
Posted by: wilsoj2 on Jul-27-05 5:01 PM (EST)
However, something that often takes aspirants extended effort and time can reasonably be referred to as difficult or hard.
Rolling is easy, learning may be hard.|
Posted by: old_user on Jul-27-05 5:18 PM (EST)
Rolling is very easy; I should qualify this to say that at least some rolls, such as the screw roll or Pawlata, are very easy. Learning to roll however can be difficult, the motions are counterintuitive and being uncomfortable hanging underwater upside down holding your breath complicates the process. Anyone having difficulty learning should try to remember that once youíve learned the sequence of motions, and practiced until they become smooth and automatic, rolling your boat will become easy and it is worth the effort.
No Special Outfitting|
Posted by: lalleluia on Jul-27-05 4:48 PM (EST)
A Stock Nighthawk 16'
I don't paddle with that coworker|
Posted by: Celia on Jul-27-05 5:02 PM (EST)
And I don't think I said I did. I am aware of his issues from talking with him about his paddling and have made many offers to get together after work in a little shallow water and help.
Sorry if I misread your comments|
Posted by: Greyak on Jul-27-05 6:07 PM (EST)
Keep up the effort.
A question for you Lou|
Posted by: rwven on Jul-27-05 2:24 PM (EST)
Do you wear a dive/snorkel mask when you practice? If not it might help some with the sudden urge to get to the surface.
Didn't say it was hard guys|
Posted by: Celia on Jul-27-05 3:53 PM (EST)
I don't believe I've ever said rolling per se was hard, though I know some who argue that it is. Personally I have always found the concepts and and the individual components of it frustratingly easy, if those were the only things involved. It's getting to the state of mind, and the folks who have actually worked with me hardly call my approach warm or fuzzy.
Maybe an email list|
Posted by: Celia on Jul-27-05 4:14 PM (EST)
Just an idea Lou, if you sign in and find this all a bit silly.
Not Sure I Follow Celia|
Posted by: lalleluia on Jul-27-05 5:01 PM (EST)
What kind of an e-mail list?
Mask & Nose Clips|
Posted by: lalleluia on Jul-27-05 4:58 PM (EST)
Tey make a big difference. Of course, I'll have to shed them some day.
If so easy why 85% lose it?|
Posted by: old_user on Jul-27-05 10:39 PM (EST)
Perhaps from lack of practice, but it suggests that really learning it, that is beyond the mechanical basics and getting out of the water is not nearly sufficient to be able to employ it in real conditions. Many sources, i.e., Sea Kayaker, etc. have cited statistics that show a very small number of kayakers who profess to be able to roll can do so when in real life circumstances.
I can think of two reasons...|
Posted by: greyak on Jul-27-05 11:40 PM (EST)
My Instructor Disagrees With #2|
Posted by: lalleluia on Jul-28-05 8:59 AM (EST)
She says that the people who learn quickly generally have poorer technique (muscle it more) that those who have to work harder at it (she claims to be one of the later).
disagree from my personal perspective|
Posted by: schizopak on Jul-28-05 9:31 AM (EST)
I learned to roll fairly quickly (one class session) but then I followed that up with many hours of practice and thousands of rolls. I have good rolling form (effortless) but it was because I was form focused from the very beginning and really worked on practicing the right way. Even these days when I know I can roll well, I still study the tip section from the Kayak Roll and EJ's video to ensure I can spot deficiencies in other people but also myself. If people learned to roll and then proceeded to do what I did (at least 100 rolls every time out on any water), they all would have a bombproof roll with good form. It's more of a matter of practice than initial time it took to roll.
. . agree with schizopak|
Posted by: old_user on Jul-28-05 10:25 AM (EST)
I agree with schizopak, it's about practice and form, not about the length of time it takes to find your first roll.
100 rolls per paddle?|
Posted by: Celia on Jul-28-05 11:00 AM (EST)
I would agree that doing that has to give you a heck of a good roll. But do you actually do 100 rolls every time you go out to paddle, or was that a typo? If you do, I am feeling pretty inadequate with my few to several.
If I roll at all...|
Posted by: Greyak on Jul-28-05 11:57 AM (EST)
.. I'll usually do at least dozen or more. Some on each side, maybe trying something new. That's stopping somewhere mid paddle to play a few minutes.
Number of times|
Posted by: Celia on Jul-28-05 1:06 PM (EST)
I was trying to reply to schizopack about the 100 per paddle, but somehow I am just not succeeding at inserting posts correctly here.
yes, no typo.|
Posted by: schizopak on Jul-28-05 10:31 PM (EST)
That is what I used to do on a normal day. On a rolling practice day, I would do about 200 hundred or more. It goes pretty quickly if you do 10 onside sweeps, 10 offside sweeps, 10 onside c-to-c, 10 offside c-to-c, 10 onside butterfly rolls, 10 offside butterfly rolls, 10 onside sculling rolls, etc... With there being dozens of different rolls to work on (including hand rolls, sculling rolls, backdeck rolls, etc.), you can really end up doing quite a bit of rolling during the course of a couple hours. Now I typically do about 20 or so during a normal paddling day although if I'm doing whitewater or playboating, that number will be closer to 50-100 again. I still get out regularly for dedicated roll practice and I am a firm believer that this practice is what has made me a strong roller as opposed to any sort of "natural gift."
Refining the technique|
Posted by: old_user on Jul-28-05 11:51 AM (EST)
Even with a very reliable roll it's also good to keep refining the technique and getting some good coaching helps. Itís easy to develop some bad habits while still rolling reliably. I've had a very reliable sweep roll for several years. This season I had the chance to work with some of the local Greenland guys, and once they corrected errors/sloppiness, I've developed a pretty solid norsaq roll and my hand rolls are steadily improving.
Lots of opinion there...|
Posted by: Celia on Jul-28-05 9:44 AM (EST)
I've heard both opinions on whether those who take longer have better technique, erto lasting benefits from their learning process. Not sure what any universal answer is myself, but I have a seen couple of behaviors in people that probably affect peoples' perception on this one.
The things people tell their students!|
Posted by: Greyak on Jul-28-05 11:45 AM (EST)
That a nice thing for an instructor to say, as it can be encouraging to a slow learner, but there's a flaw in that logic:
quick learners also loss it quick|
Posted by: abc on Jul-28-05 1:34 PM (EST)
There's a little bit of truth in that. The quick learners found rolling so easy they don't bother praticing it much. They can loss it. The slow pluggers never because it took so much work to learn. It just follows they're motivated to spend more time pratice. The turtle vs. hare thing.
"...don't bother practicing it much"?|
Posted by: Greyak on Jul-28-05 4:19 PM (EST)
Now that is a HUGE piece of imagination! Why would that be?
totally missing the boat!!!|
Posted by: abc on Jul-30-05 5:44 PM (EST)
What I said is:|
Posted by: greyak on Jul-31-05 11:15 AM (EST)
"You can twist this stuff around to suit whatever BS you're trying to sell yourself. There is probably an example of someone that fits any variation."
Posted by: sing on Jul-29-05 7:46 AM (EST)
Yup - not a race|
Posted by: Celia on Jul-29-05 8:34 AM (EST)
It's not at all a race, but I think that is not always easy for people to see. Frankly, once I (early on) realized that I would eventually roll but for me it was going to take longer than for most of the "rollers" I knew right then, I still made myself safer in the water very quickly by figuring out what I could count on with the skills I did have. So I got down wet re-entries and up with paddle float on, picked up a Roll-Aid device, basically any technique that was reliable and took advantage of the hip snap I could count on. (Integrating the paddle was my technical bugaboo.) And that automatically handled the desensitization, so over the course of a year the high anxiety response lessened to a point where it wasn't getting in the way.
Thanks For A Nice Thread|
Posted by: lalleluia on Jul-29-05 4:24 PM (EST)
Before this thread finds it's way to the second page, I want to thank those who responded. I know I've gotten some food for thought, and hopefully others have as well.
Just Got Home from Roll Practice|
Posted by: Kudzu on Jul-29-05 7:53 PM (EST)
at the local lake.
Just Got Home From Surfing|
Posted by: sing on Jul-29-05 8:08 PM (EST)
Franklin swells. I have not a clue how many rolls I did, nor types though they tend to be C2C, followed by back deck rolls and then layback rolls. And then there were those weird braces after capsize that would just catch some wave force and popped me back up.
Posted by: schizopak on Jul-30-05 2:06 AM (EST)
Practicing rolling in a dynamic environment elevates the rolling steps from 1. setup 2. sweep 3. hipsnap to 1. feel (the wave or current) 2. react (brace, scull, etc.) 3. roll (no real knowledge of how but using steps 1 and 2, your body somehow rolls you up).
What Worked At The Lake|
Posted by: Kudzu on Jul-30-05 5:16 AM (EST)
check this thread|
Posted by: old_user on Jul-31-05 10:09 AM (EST)
9th reply, by ericnye