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  Solo Reverse Sweep
  Posted by: melenas on Jun-07-14 11:38 PM (EST)
   Category: Canoeing Technique 

The way the solo reverse sweep is described in "Canoeing: A Trailside Guide by Gordon Grant" differs from both my intuition as well as the way I've seen it described in other books. It involves switching from the backface to the powerface slightly behind your body (apparently to avoid backward thrust, although I don't understand how that would be accomplished.) The relevant paragraph from the book:

http://tinyurl.com/pukbx2q

Is the switch of the paddle face common practice for this stroke? Why would it not tend to "push the boat backwards", as claimed in the book.

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  Some thoughts
  Posted by: Guideboatguy on Jun-08-14 1:28 AM (EST)
-- Last Updated: Jun-08-14 1:46 AM EST --

Well, the stroke that's described there is what the McGuffins call a compound reverse sweep (a name that's more proper, considering the power-face switch that is happening). Incidentally, the McGuffins also modify this stroke a bit to include a bracing action, apparently to support a greater amount of heel at the beginning of the stroke. The McGuffins describe that stroke as a way of doing a quick U-turn when traveling forward, while the normal reverse sweep that you are apparently thinking of is something they describe as being best used for a stationary pivot.

I haven't used either of these all that much, so take this for what it's worth. Actually, in thinking about it, I have used the compound version quite a bit - it took me a little while to realize it.

I think that a likely reason that author of your reference recommends reversing the blade orientation for the second half of the stroke is that doing so allows easy transition from from pushing the stern away from the paddle to then pulling the bow toward the paddle (if you were moving forward when doing this stroke, the second half of the stroke is just a Duffek). In addition, doing that switch eliminates the portion of the regular reverse sweep that's applying a push in the straight-ahead direction, which even though it contributes to the pivot due to its reach, it also contributes a component of reversing power which will tend to push the boat backward. No other part of the stroke has thrust in the rearward direction, so the only component of force that's not actually contributing most strongly to the pivoting action will make the boat move backward (just try to do a stationary pivot with a "pure" reverse sweep without producing some reverse travel - you won't succeed). Finally, as I partly hinted at above, it's actually a lot more efficient to draw the bow toward the paddle using the power face than when using the non-power face, simply on account of how the orientation of your arms and hands allows a stronger stroke and a better-aligned path of the paddle for drawing the bow.

I won't make any judgement about which stroke is "correct" or "more common". I'm thinking the stroke, as described in your reference, is simply mis-named, and NOT really the one you were expecting to be described. I think that both methods would have a preferred usage, depending on the situation.

 
 
  Sounds like a christy + bow draw ...
  Posted by: Glenn_MacGrady on Jun-08-14 2:30 AM (EST)
... in freestyle lingo. It's an on-side turning move. You could call it a compound stroke or two linked strokes, I suppose.

You could do the entire sweep, from stern to bow, with just the power face. This could be better initiated from a forward goon stroke than a forward J stroke. It would probably slow the boat more than the christy + bow draw.

Now, is it "christie", "Christie", "christy" or "Christy"?
 
 
  Often when one does a reverse sweep,
  Posted by: ezwater on Jun-08-14 4:34 PM (EST)
slowing the boat is not only acceptable but desirable.

I've watched Gordon Grant race slalom, and he never had occasion to use a reverse sweep.
 
 
  This is a hard stroke to
  Posted by: pagayeur on Jun-08-14 2:41 AM (EST)
verbalize, but I essentially agree with GBG above. Start the stroke by rotating so that the shoulders are parallel to the gunwale. The paddle should be horizontal with the grip hand thumb pointed up, the shaft hand choked up and the blade edge pointed up and near the stern, and the power-face looking at the canoe. Begin the unwind the torso back toward the bow. When the paddle is about half way and perpendicular to the gunwale you will find the grip arm is against the stomach and the shaft hand straight out to the side. At this point the bio mechanics are such that the torso is less a factor and the grip hand is a pivot point with the shaft and supplying the power to move the paddle forward. This causes the canoe to start moving in reverse rather than continuing to spin in place. As pointed out flipping the grip thumb down at this point instead, begins a bow draw and smoothly continues the canoe pivot. This is really not some anal slavery to correctness as much as it is correct bio-mechanics to make a seamless pivot in place. HTH.

Pag
 
 
  My Favorite Stroke For Getting Off The
  Posted by: clydehedlund on Jun-08-14 5:10 AM (EST)
Beach, in between sets of waves, in my ruddered solo outrigger canoe. Start by pushing the stern away from the blade, continue pushing the hull back past the blade, then draw the bow to the blade, where it passes over it and the stroke continues full circle until the canoe has spun a 180 turn. Now punch out through the waves before you get nailed.
 
 
  I don't switch that way, and other ww
  Posted by: ezwater on Jun-08-14 11:05 AM (EST)
paddlers who've posted video on cboats.net don't switch that way.
 
 
  Read the OP
  Posted by: pagayeur on Jun-08-14 12:31 PM (EST)
The request is for an explanation of Gordon Grant's approach, not how you or a few folks on another forum paddle. This very question came up for me many years ago and in asking many professional paddlers, some of who claim to have paddled with GG, this is what I learned. What is the best way, is purely rhetorical, the question is what GG is describing and why. The OP of course is free to execute this maneuver in whatever way he desires.
 
 
  There is no explanation. There's no
  Posted by: ezwater on Jun-08-14 4:28 PM (EST)
-- Last Updated: Jun-08-14 4:30 PM EST --

reason to flip power faces. And in fact I never, never use a reverse sweep.

I knew Gordon Grant at NOC. He knows a lot, but unfortunately some of what he knows is useless.

As for the J stroke, I grew out of that years ago.

 
 
  Makes perfect sense to me
  Posted by: kayamedic on Jun-08-14 2:06 PM (EST)
though flipping the powerface with a symmetrical grip and blade seems not necessary.

As in the compound back ( of course that is a different stroke) you can change your grip (without moving and flipping the paddle) from thumbs up to thumbs down. An alternative method is of course to flip the paddle.

The intent is to make a full reverse sweep possible while not making your arms and hands become painful pretzels.

The next step is getting on the water and trying a full reverse sweep without changing grip of powerface.. When your blade passes your hip enroute to the bow..don
things get uncomfortable?
 
 
  Comfort
  Posted by: melenas on Jun-08-14 7:48 PM (EST)
I don't feel particularly uncomfortable or pretzely after the blade passes my hip. No more than when in the bow quadrant of the forward sweep, which is pretty much the reverse stroke with similar bio mechanics, isn't it?

Do you switch your grip or paddle face during the stroke?
 
 
  Had to...
  Posted by: al_a on Jun-08-14 10:50 PM (EST)
go get a paddle and sit in the living room and try it to figure out how I do that stroke. I do it just as described in the book. I tried doing it keeping thumb up and non-power face leading the whole stroke, but even doing it in the air that way, I could see where it would push the canoe backwards a lot more during the middle part of the stroke. It's all about the angle. If you keep the non-power face moving forward through the middle of the stroke, the position of your arms makes it move parallel to the canoe for a significant distance, while if you rotate the paddle in the middle of the stroke, you don't have hardly any distance where the paddle is moving parallel to the canoe and providing power. It's actually a very smooth stroke for me.

I've always been more of an intuitive paddler. I never read books on paddling, and in fact seldom even know the names of the strokes I use. I just move the paddle in such a way to get the bow, the stern, or the middle of the canoe to move the way I want it to in the most efficient way possible, and after 45 years or so of paddling, I've figured out what the most efficient ways are for me to do it. Also, most of the time in the solo canoe, I'm fishing, so in actuality a lot of my strokes are done one-handed while holding the fishing rod in the other hand. So instead of the reverse sweep as described, I'm often holding the paddle with one hand, gripping it down fairly near the blade, paddle shaft at a shallow angle with blade face vertical, thumb down, arm locked straight, and the shaft in contact with the back of my arm and the paddle grip in contact with the back of my shoulder. Rotate torso until nearly parallel to the canoe axis, insert paddle blade within inches of the stern, and rotate torso while sweeping paddle with shoulder and torso. Once I feel it starting to push the canoe backward instead of moving the stern, I take the paddle out of the water and repeat if necessary. And of course, the farther back you reach when inserting the paddle to begin the stroke, the more leverage you have.
 
 
  I agree
  Posted by: pblanc on Jun-09-14 8:58 AM (EST)
-- Last Updated: Jun-09-14 9:00 AM EST --

If you want to do an easy, relaxed pivot on flat water or easy current the full reverse sweep (loading the back face for the entire stroke) works fine, and if you don't overpower the stroke and keep the paddle shaft quite horizontal I find that the blade remains in nearly the same position in the water throughout the stroke, the boat pivots smoothly around the fixed blade, and the boat does not move backwards from its original heading much.

For a more aggressive pivot the compound reverse sweep is probably better as the draw to the bow using the power face at the conclusion of the stroke is probably ergonomically more powerful for most folks. I agree with GBG in that the primary advantage is having the blade face properly positioned for linking to an effective subsequent stroke, either a stationary draw/high brace or a forward stroke. An example in which this type of stroke might be very useful is after getting unintentionally spun upstream in the middle of a rapid. The compound reverse sweep powerfully pivots the boat and links a bit more seamlessly to a draw, high brace, or forward stroke as needed.

To answer a question posed by the OP and partially answered by others, this is accomplished by flipping the paddle blade by turning the grip hand from a thumbs up position to a thumbs down position. Just before the blade is flipped, unload the back face by taking the power off the stroke, and rotate the grip hand thumb towards your body (it would be pretty much impossible to rotate it the other way).

The alternative is to do a palm roll and not flip the paddle blade, but this can be awkward to do with a T grip, is not practical for a paddle with a dedicated power face, and relaxing the grip is not a good idea in fast current.

But ultimately I think the best option has been proposed by al_a. The most effective portions of the reverse sweep are the first foot of paddle travel at the stern, and the last foot at the bow. By starting the reverse sweep right at the boat (with the torso fully rotated, the blade well back, and the paddle shaft fairly horizontal) and ending it no more than a foot from the hull, the boat can be powerfully pivoted. This is the active stern pry and with practice three (or more) stern pries can be done in the same time as one reverse sweep. It might not look as relaxed and graceful, but it is more effective.

 
 
  That might be of interest if I *ever*
  Posted by: ezwater on Jun-09-14 11:57 AM (EST)
had occasion to do a reverse sweep.

Perhaps because I'm very tall and get everything done from a considerable vertical angle, I seldom get the paddle horizontal enough to do a sweep of any sort.

But analyze it however you will, I find it hard to believe that switching power face in the middle of a stroke will be a more effective use of paddle-in-the-water.
 
 
  Actually...
  Posted by: al_a on Jun-09-14 1:50 PM (EST)
by switching the power face in the middle of the stroke, you're essentially doing two strokes, a stern pry and a bow draw, without lifting the paddle from the water. You're mostly skipping the part of any sweep where the paddle is providing power parallel to the canoe. To me, a sweep is meant to make the canoe inscribe an arc. If the canoe is more or less sitting still, the sweep, whether forward or reverse, will make it move forward or backward while turning. If you do the reverse sweep without switching power faces, that's what the canoe will do. If you switch power faces, it comes a lot closer to pivoting in place rather than moving backward. If the canoe is moving forward, switching power faces makes it turn quickly while maintaining at least some of its forward momentum, while not switching kills the momentum completely...it's like applying brakes and one wheel locks up. The canoe stops forward motion while turning quickly.

Of course, it all depends upon what you want to accomplish, since both ways do different things, either of which can be useful in a given situation
 
 
  In freestyle its called a christie
  Posted by: kayamedic on Jun-09-14 2:04 PM (EST)
and accomplished best by a palm roll which leaves the powerface always on duty..there is a micro second during a flip when you have nothing except pushing down and pulling up water while the blade rotates.

If you have a grip that allows it the former is easier. The latter if you have a unidirectional or t grip.

I find in compound back strokes (another beast I know) I have become too set in flipping the blade rather than palm rolling.
 
 
  I was thinking about freestyle as
  Posted by: ezwater on Jun-09-14 3:17 PM (EST)
a venue that would force me into many strokes I never use. And freestyle is in some ways the ultimate of what one can do with a solo canoe.

But when I'm just running rapids and rivers, even when the need for maneuvering comes thick and fast, I find myself getting everything done with slalom technique, and that means 85 % directed forward strokes. My boats are so responsive that there's seldom a need for sweep strokes, or fancy compound strokes either. Keep the boat moving forward, and adjust its forward motion as needed.

That's one reason I never understood the discussions of compound backstrokes. Backstrokes? Real whitewater boats don't do backstrokes, not since reverse gates were abolished from racecourses!
 
 
  FS is quiet water
  Posted by: kayamedic on Jun-09-14 4:24 PM (EST)
and compound backstrokes good tools for getting into the wrong bog when there is no way to turn around.

Despite the emphasis in the US on canoeing being a river oriented sport, the farther North you move the more important lakes become and the less documented some routes are.

Backing up is often done as a result of a route finding error.

There are some moves in FS that you should absolutely not do in whitewater.
 
 
  Don't get alarmed cuz you don't use
  Posted by: bigspencer on Jun-09-14 11:01 AM (EST)
-- Last Updated: Jun-09-14 11:31 AM EST --

the particular stroke...ie ezwater's. One can be pretty inventive with a canoe paddle without needing the maneuver itemized in author_X's Anthology of Paddling.
I think anytime you put the shoulder and/or elbow in a position of having to produce most of the isolated power..you run the risk of asking for trouble...it all depends on the situation(water's resistance and hull efficiency). Often a short pry, with your torso being the main power source, can produce much more result....leading to somekind of stroke with your arms and paddle in front of the paddler. Much easier to tilt the hull for efficient travel if your upperbody is upright, keeping everthing balanced.

 
 
  I agree with Bs, et. al.
  Posted by: pagayeur on Jun-09-14 3:30 PM (EST)
If one looks back at how traditionally the Solo Bow Draw was taught, the grip hand is almost in the opposite armpit with the thumb down. This locks in the arms and allows almost total use of the more powerful torso. Additionally the shaft hand also changes angles, bringing the large latissimus dorsi muscle into play. It naturally follows that in a Rev Sweep by the time the paddle is almost perpendicular to the centerline the maneuver needs to become a Bow Draw, thus eliminating any Reverse possibility and bringing in the stronger Bow Draw stroke.
If a paddler wants to hold the grip between his butt cheeks and do the Hula to complete a maneuver, its fine by me, whatever floats your boat. Iím trying to respond to the OPís question. I do not endorse or reject anyone elseís methods.
 
 
  KM: With all due respect,
  Posted by: pagayeur on Jun-09-14 8:14 PM (EST)
I know you know what a Christie is. Iíve seen you do a thousand or more and seen you teach that many at my symposium alone. I think however, you may not be remembering the Solo Rev Sweep. Itís an old school thing and not much in favor now-a-days. So, having said that, the FS Christie is not a Solo Rev Sweep. Also a palm roll would defeat the purpose of a true Solo Rev Sweep. In case some folks out there are confused by this, a FS Christie is a pivot turn to the Onside which starts by Initiating a turn while under way with a hard correction after a forward stroke. The paddle is then placed in the Low Brace position near the stern. The grip hand faces upward and the shaft hand is on top of the shaft and the backface of the blade is down. The paddler holds pressure on the blade while the hull pivots around it. When momentum starts to slow the paddler may execute a palm roll to set the grip hand up for a high brace conclusion which draws the Bow to the paddle. In a Solo Rev Sweep the placement is near the stern with the grip thumb up which means the blade edge is facing upward. Sweep the paddle toward the Bow and somewhere near perpendicular to the centerline rotate the grip thumb toward your armpit then all the way downward and touching the front of the shoulder oe right below. The shaft hand also rotates at an angle back toward the forearm. Lock that in and rotate the torso. Itís one of the strongest strokes in canoeing. In terms of strength, it is akin to a Cross Bow Draw, albeit not as forceful. The only comparison is that they are both pivots to the Onside. The Solo Rev Sweep can be done from a standing position, however.
 
 
  I have seen this taught
  Posted by: canoeist11 on Jun-10-14 10:41 AM (EST)
the way GG describes. The idea being that you have more power with the thumb down going into the bow draw and it does involve releasing pressure on the grip using a palm roll. Occasionally I execute a reverse sweep this way, but not usually. whether the back face or power face is used, there is a tendency to create backward momentum, which is why it generally is used to execute a spin from a dead stop position. Using the reverse sweep while having any forward momentum would have a detrimental effect. Of course there can always arise a situation in that that might be what you would want to do, however there are likely more efficient ways to accomplish the goal.
 
 
  Reverse sweep + transition + bow draw
  Posted by: Glenn_MacGrady on Jun-10-14 12:23 PM (EST)
-- Last Updated: Jun-10-14 12:28 PM EST --

(1) It seems there is general agreement that this compound stroke is a back face reverse sweep that transitions into a power face bow draw. The transition happens when the paddle is approximately aside (or slightly behind) the paddler.

There are two ways the transition can be done:

(a) Grant says you flip the paddle face in the water while maintaining the top grip. This will cause a some inefficient turbulence, in my opinion.

(b) You can also do the transition via a palm roll, which requires no in-water paddle face flip. To me, this is sleeker and more efficient. However, as pblanc points out, you probably don't want to do a palm roll with a bent or other dedicated face paddle, because you will then have the back side as the power face during the bow draw phase.

That leaves two other possibilities for something that could be called a "reverse sweep".

(2) Do the entire sweep from bow to stern with the back face. You wouldn't have much power in this stroke after the blade passes forward of your body, and it would result in a Kayamedical torso "pretzel".

(3) Do the entire sweep from bow to stern with the power face. This would certainly be an effective way to turn from a standstill, but would stop a lot of forward momentum while under way, which might be desirable in certain whitewater situations but probably not while running turns on a slow twisty creek.

 
 
  Kayamedical Torso Pretzel
  Posted by: melenas on Jun-10-14 3:09 PM (EST)
regarding (2):

I don't understand how the non-compound solo reverse sweep would be any more pretzely than the non-compound solo forward sweep---am I missing something?
 
 
  Terminology & visualization are a bitch
  Posted by: Glenn_MacGrady on Jun-14-14 10:30 AM (EST)
Melenas, what you call the the "non-compound solo forward sweep" is just the normal sweep. It's done by PULLING (with your shaft hand-arm-shoulder) the POWER face from bow to stern.

What you call the "non-compound solo reverse sweep" would be best exemplified by my #3, which similarly involves PULLING the POWER face but now in reverse from stern to bow.

My #2 involves PUSHING the BACK face all the way from stern to bow. The last half of such a push, from beside your body to the bow, just feels awkward and less powerful to many of us. If you do the "transition" (either way) when the paddle is beside your body, so that your shaft hand-arm-shoulder is now PULLING (drawing) toward the bow, that last half is more powerful. It also puts you immediately into a better position to take the next forward stroke.

Grant says the benefit of his method will show up later on when he gets to paddling in whitewater. It's because at the end of his bow draw, the paddle will be in an immediate position to take a powerful forward stroke or perhaps a Duffek. If you just push-sweep the back face all the way to the bow, you will end up on a sort of low brace up near the bow, which would be a very unstable and useless paddle position in thrashing-bashing whitewater.
 
 
  Clarification
  Posted by: melenas on Jun-14-14 4:32 PM (EST)
yes, my "non-compound solo forward sweep" is just the normal forward sweep, but by "non-compound solo reverse sweep" I definitely meant #2 (which was the normal reverse sweep for me until this discussion), not #3, which is unfamiliar to me.

My point was that the normal forward sweep is just the reverse of #2. If I kayamedically torso-pretzel in the bow quadrant with #2, as some have claimed, why wouldn't I similarly kayamedically torso-pretzel in the bow quadrant when doing a normal forward sweep?
 
 
  So do an experiment
  Posted by: Glenn_MacGrady on Jun-15-14 1:04 AM (EST)
Let's use the terminology of your normal reverse sweep and the compound (Gordon Grant) reverse sweep.

From the stern to abeam of your body they are the same: a pushing sweep with the back face. So let's forget that half of the stroke and start from abeam your body.

Put the paddle in the water abeam of your body in two different ways:

(1) Your way, with the back face facing the bow and your grip thumb up. Sweep from abeam to the bow.

(2) Grant's way, with the power face facing the bow and your grip thumb down. Sweep from abeam to the bow. (This is a sweeping bow draw.)

Which sweep to the the bow was more powerful, invoking more torso muscles? Which leaves your arms less twisted? Which leaves the paddle in the more natural position for the next stroke catch? Grant will say (2) to all these questions. If you are happy with the results of (1), go for it. Frankly, none of these reverse sweeps are something I do often in flat water.
 
 
  Hi Old Friend.
  Posted by: pagayeur on Jun-10-14 12:26 PM (EST)
It is my hope that one day we can be back on the water together and have a real discussion with paddle in hand. Meanwhile Iíll continue with these rather imperfect verbalizations. I agree the Solo Rev Sweep is one of the better ways to pivot a solo hull from a standstill. However, I do not use a palm roll for this maneuver. In this particular maneuver, a palm roll changes little for me. Why do one? Doing a palm roll creates little difference than keeping the thumb up? I roll the grip hand downward and shaft hand back in order to change the dynamic between the paddle and paddler. Turning the thumb downward takes more arm out of the picture and brings the strength of the whole torso into play, which is the whole purpose of this approach. The palm roll has its place, but not for me in this case.

Respectfully,
Pag
 
 
  I agree
  Posted by: canoeist11 on Jun-10-14 12:43 PM (EST)
I usually do the reverse sweep the way you describe. Just seems to work better with less goofing around, although I get the concept of GG method; just not my preferred way of doing it, or teaching it for that matter. In fact I seem to rarely have a need to spin the boat 180 degrees or more from a dead stop, anyway. I still believe it is a useful maneuver to teach, though.
 
 
  such as
  Posted by: pblanc on Jun-10-14 12:32 PM (EST)
If you want to quickly pivot the bow of the canoe toward your on-side without killing forward momentum, use a cross-forward power stroke.

The stern pry is a more powerful correction stroke to turn toward the on-side, and it will slow forward speed some, but if done with good form, keeping the blade well astern the body and close to the hull, it will not kill momentum much.

A third alternative is a draw done in the on-side bow quadrant such as a bow draw or Duffek. This tends to put the brakes on a bit more.

I suppose some would include a cross-bow wedge, or jam as a fourth alternative.
 
 
  Yes, and all these velocity-keeping ...
  Posted by: Glenn_MacGrady on Jun-10-14 1:01 PM (EST)
... methods of turning on-side are potentially useful for my windy situation, which seems to have becalmed.
 
 
  Finally got it...
  Posted by: eckilson on Jun-14-14 5:28 AM (EST)
-- Last Updated: Jun-14-14 7:17 AM EST --

It's a compound stroke starting with a reverse sweep and transiting to a bow draw. Yes - do that all the time. On whitewater I would be more likely to use a quick stern pry than a reverse sweep, but it is essentially the same combination of strokes. Not sure why it took me so long to figure that out - it was described in the first couple of responses.

I kept trying to figure out why you would flip your control hand over with the paddle still in the low brace position. It makes perfect sense that you would do that once you move the paddle into high brace position to do the bow draw, but he left that step out of the description.

If I understand what he is describing correctly, I would never call this combination of strokes a "Solo Reverse Sweep".

 
 
  you mention the paddle
  Posted by: pagayeur on Jun-14-14 3:03 PM (EST)
"still in the low brace position". You probably just misspoke, due to some previous discussion about the Low Brace. So to eview: In the Solo Rev. Sweep there is no low brace component. The paddle starts with a thumb-up Rev. Sweep then transitions into a thumb-down Bow Draw. HTH

Pag
 
 
  Bad choice of words
  Posted by: eckilson on Jun-15-14 5:48 AM (EST)
Understand that there is no low brace or high brace involved. I was just trying to comment that not only will the grip hand thumb rotate down, but the grip hand also needs to move up as you start the bow draw. You describe is nicely below.
 
 
  Not bad, just different, terminology
  Posted by: Glenn_MacGrady on Jun-15-14 11:24 AM (EST)
Differing terminologies have caused more confusion in canoeing than in just about any endeavor in which I ever have been engaged, whether professionally or as a hobbyist. The traditional Masonists, the bureaucratic ACA, the Pharisaic flatwater freestylers, and the nouveau whitewater squirt-creek-freestyle-rodeo boaters have all created a Tower of Terminological Babel -- often redundantly describing the same thing.

The first half of the reverse sweep is akin to a sweeping low brace. Perhaps the blade pitch and hand elevations are slightly different. The transition of the Grant version does go into what can be called a bow draw, a drawing high brace, or a pulling Duffek. Again, different utterers of these terms may have slightly different hand and blade positions in mind.

Demonstration is better than words.
 
 
  melenas, please believe this
  Posted by: pagayeur on Jun-15-14 2:53 AM (EST)
Here is the classic Solo Rev Sweep, described by GG in your reference: Letís say the paddler is standing still and wishes to turn to his onside. Stack the hands as in a forward stroke, rotate at the waist until facing the onside, drop the grip hand down with the thumb up to a position just outside the gunwale, so that the paddle is horizontal and the Powerface is almost touching the hull near the stern stem and top blade edge just under the water. Begin turning forward at the waist so that you feel pressure on the Backface and the hull begins a pivot to the onside. Sometime before the paddle gets perpendicular to the hull, begin rotating the grip hand thumb toward the body while simultaneously rotating the shaft hand backward with the knuckles toward the forearm to form a upside down figure ďLĒ. This will change the position of the Powerface and Backface and the the Powerface will now be facing forward and feeling pressure. The shaft armís elbow should be at your side near the waist and the grip hand should be near the body below the shaft armís armpit. Continue rotating at the waist ( this is a classic Bow Draw) until the Powerface nears the Bow. At this point the paddler is set up to lift the grip hand upward, turn the thumb out, and stack the shaft hand under it for a Forward Stroke if desired. I am not aware the GG ever suggested a Palm Roll for this maneuver. It makes no sense to use one in this case. No mechanical advantage is gained by a Palm Roll in this situation except practicing your Palm Roll. I had not seen the thumb up all the way through, taught by anyone. It is much weaker mechanically that the above described approach. HTH

Pagayeur
 
 
  well, that version is taught
  Posted by: pblanc on Jun-15-14 6:03 AM (EST)
although I agree that is has less mechanical advantage.

Here it is demonstrated in a Bruce Lessels video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6XPKv-8VDbw
 
 
  That is the way I learned
  Posted by: eckilson on Jun-15-14 7:10 AM (EST)
the reverse sweep.
 
 
  Difference is whitewater hull
  Posted by: Glenn_MacGrady on Jun-15-14 10:54 AM (EST)
Lessels (and anyone else) can turn that very short, highly rockered WW hull with just the first half of a forward or reverse sweep. Not much technique is required to turn a WW hull 180 degrees, not even a heel. Literally, a four year old can do it.

Turning a flatwater touring canoe 180 (or 120) degrees requires a lot more sophisticated technique and properly applied power.

I recall Mike Galt being scoffed at by some instructors at NOC when he demonstrated his solo freestyle routine. "Piffle, piffle, anyone can spin a boat", sneered they. Until they tried to do it in his Lotus Egret.

As to doing a palm roll for the paddle face transition in the middle of the Grant reverse sweep, no, it's not required. Nor is it contraindicated. I probably wouldn't do a palm roll with a T-grip paddle in churning whitewater because it would be a fractional second of lost control. I would do it in flatwater just because I think it's smoother, causes less blade turbulence, and I just like the aesthetic feel better.
 
 
  No argument there...
  Posted by: eckilson on Jun-15-14 12:19 PM (EST)
I think the reverse swept/bow draw combination stroke will turn any boat faster than the reverse sweep alone. I've just never hear of that combination stroke being called a "solo reverse sweep".
 
 
  no
  Posted by: pblanc on Jun-15-14 12:36 PM (EST)
I haven't either. I have heard it called the compound reverse sweep.
 
 
  Similar to a christie
  Posted by: Glenn_MacGrady on Jun-15-14 3:14 PM (EST)
The paddler in this Mark Molina video gets so much turn out of her low speed initiation (via a stern pry = reverse draw = inverted draw = pushaway) that she doesn't need to use much of a forward sweep on the low brace move or the bow draw conclusion move. She uses a palm roll to go into the brace/sweep and another palm roll to go into the dynamic bow draw.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAueM-kjNC4

Patrick Moore says "Christie" is an informal term for a "2 degree inverted axle". Knock yourself out with his terminology, which I actually think makes the most physics sense of all the Babel-onian terminological schemata.

http://moorecanoeing.com/school/skills_philosophy.htm
 
 
  This thread has gotten away from
  Posted by: pagayeur on Jun-15-14 1:14 PM (EST)
the OP. The question was about "Canoeing: A Trailside Guide by Gordon Grant and the text about what he terms a Solo Reverse Sweep. What I described above is hopefully an explanation of that specific topic. I see no mention of Palm Roll or the term "Compound" in this section. Although not discussed in this book, I agree that WW canoeists seldom use this and its best use is from a stand still in non WW canoes.

Pag
 
 
  "Compound" seems perfectly relevant
  Posted by: Guideboatguy on Jun-15-14 1:26 PM (EST)
-- Last Updated: Jun-15-14 1:27 PM EST --

Just because Grant doesn't use the word "compound" doesn't make it off-topic in this discussion. It seems to me that most people use "compound" to describe a stroke in which both power faces get used, so bringing up that point is relevant when explaining to the OP why the stroke he'd previously seen described as a solo reverse sweep is different from the one he mentions here. The stroke being discussed is one that most other people would call a compound solo reverse sweep, even if Grant doesn't differentiate it from the simpler, "non-compound" sweep.

 
 
  I couldn't agree with you more
  Posted by: pagayeur on Jun-15-14 9:17 PM (EST)
I'm just saying the word "Compound" is not used in the article in question and the use of it in this thread has confused some folks.
 
 
  Whitewater canoeists
  Posted by: eckilson on Jun-15-14 1:31 PM (EST)
use that stoke all the time - it just would'd be called a solo reverse sweep. Not sure what it would be called - reverse sweep/bow draw? It's also not explained very well in the book. You do a better job of explaining it above.
 
 
  The reason I went into a detailed
  Posted by: pagayeur on Jun-15-14 9:14 PM (EST)
explanation is, just as you say, it is not explained very well in the article and that I think is the source of a lot of confusion. As a result it has been discussed around many a campfire, since its publication.
 

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