The way the solo reverse sweep is described in "Canoeing: A Trailside Guide by Gordon Grant" differs from both my intuition as well as the way I've seen it described in other books. It involves switching from the backface to the powerface slightly behind your body (apparently to avoid backward thrust, although I don't understand how that would be accomplished.) The relevant paragraph from the book:
Is the switch of the paddle face common practice for this stroke? Why would it not tend to "push the boat backwards", as claimed in the book.
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Posted by: Guideboatguy on Jun-08-14 1:28 AM (EST)
Sounds like a christy + bow draw ...|
Posted by: Glenn_MacGrady on Jun-08-14 2:30 AM (EST)
... in freestyle lingo. It's an on-side turning move. You could call it a compound stroke or two linked strokes, I suppose.
Often when one does a reverse sweep, |
Posted by: ezwater on Jun-08-14 4:34 PM (EST)
slowing the boat is not only acceptable but desirable.
This is a hard stroke to |
Posted by: pagayeur on Jun-08-14 2:41 AM (EST)
verbalize, but I essentially agree with GBG above. Start the stroke by rotating so that the shoulders are parallel to the gunwale. The paddle should be horizontal with the grip hand thumb pointed up, the shaft hand choked up and the blade edge pointed up and near the stern, and the power-face looking at the canoe. Begin the unwind the torso back toward the bow. When the paddle is about half way and perpendicular to the gunwale you will find the grip arm is against the stomach and the shaft hand straight out to the side. At this point the bio mechanics are such that the torso is less a factor and the grip hand is a pivot point with the shaft and supplying the power to move the paddle forward. This causes the canoe to start moving in reverse rather than continuing to spin in place. As pointed out flipping the grip thumb down at this point instead, begins a bow draw and smoothly continues the canoe pivot. This is really not some anal slavery to correctness as much as it is correct bio-mechanics to make a seamless pivot in place. HTH.
My Favorite Stroke For Getting Off The|
Posted by: clydehedlund on Jun-08-14 5:10 AM (EST)
Beach, in between sets of waves, in my ruddered solo outrigger canoe. Start by pushing the stern away from the blade, continue pushing the hull back past the blade, then draw the bow to the blade, where it passes over it and the stroke continues full circle until the canoe has spun a 180 turn. Now punch out through the waves before you get nailed.
I don't switch that way, and other ww |
Posted by: ezwater on Jun-08-14 11:05 AM (EST)
paddlers who've posted video on cboats.net don't switch that way.
Read the OP|
Posted by: pagayeur on Jun-08-14 12:31 PM (EST)
The request is for an explanation of Gordon Grant's approach, not how you or a few folks on another forum paddle. This very question came up for me many years ago and in asking many professional paddlers, some of who claim to have paddled with GG, this is what I learned. What is the best way, is purely rhetorical, the question is what GG is describing and why. The OP of course is free to execute this maneuver in whatever way he desires.
There is no explanation. There's no |
Posted by: ezwater on Jun-08-14 4:28 PM (EST)
Makes perfect sense to me|
Posted by: kayamedic on Jun-08-14 2:06 PM (EST)
though flipping the powerface with a symmetrical grip and blade seems not necessary.
Posted by: melenas on Jun-08-14 7:48 PM (EST)
I don't feel particularly uncomfortable or pretzely after the blade passes my hip. No more than when in the bow quadrant of the forward sweep, which is pretty much the reverse stroke with similar bio mechanics, isn't it?
Posted by: al_a on Jun-08-14 10:50 PM (EST)
go get a paddle and sit in the living room and try it to figure out how I do that stroke. I do it just as described in the book. I tried doing it keeping thumb up and non-power face leading the whole stroke, but even doing it in the air that way, I could see where it would push the canoe backwards a lot more during the middle part of the stroke. It's all about the angle. If you keep the non-power face moving forward through the middle of the stroke, the position of your arms makes it move parallel to the canoe for a significant distance, while if you rotate the paddle in the middle of the stroke, you don't have hardly any distance where the paddle is moving parallel to the canoe and providing power. It's actually a very smooth stroke for me.
Posted by: pblanc on Jun-09-14 8:58 AM (EST)
That might be of interest if I *ever* |
Posted by: ezwater on Jun-09-14 11:57 AM (EST)
had occasion to do a reverse sweep.
Posted by: al_a on Jun-09-14 1:50 PM (EST)
by switching the power face in the middle of the stroke, you're essentially doing two strokes, a stern pry and a bow draw, without lifting the paddle from the water. You're mostly skipping the part of any sweep where the paddle is providing power parallel to the canoe. To me, a sweep is meant to make the canoe inscribe an arc. If the canoe is more or less sitting still, the sweep, whether forward or reverse, will make it move forward or backward while turning. If you do the reverse sweep without switching power faces, that's what the canoe will do. If you switch power faces, it comes a lot closer to pivoting in place rather than moving backward. If the canoe is moving forward, switching power faces makes it turn quickly while maintaining at least some of its forward momentum, while not switching kills the momentum completely...it's like applying brakes and one wheel locks up. The canoe stops forward motion while turning quickly.
In freestyle its called a christie|
Posted by: kayamedic on Jun-09-14 2:04 PM (EST)
and accomplished best by a palm roll which leaves the powerface always on duty..there is a micro second during a flip when you have nothing except pushing down and pulling up water while the blade rotates.
I was thinking about freestyle as |
Posted by: ezwater on Jun-09-14 3:17 PM (EST)
a venue that would force me into many strokes I never use. And freestyle is in some ways the ultimate of what one can do with a solo canoe.
FS is quiet water|
Posted by: kayamedic on Jun-09-14 4:24 PM (EST)
and compound backstrokes good tools for getting into the wrong bog when there is no way to turn around.
Don't get alarmed cuz you don't use|
Posted by: bigspencer on Jun-09-14 11:01 AM (EST)
I agree with Bs, et. al. |
Posted by: pagayeur on Jun-09-14 3:30 PM (EST)
If one looks back at how traditionally the Solo Bow Draw was taught, the grip hand is almost in the opposite armpit with the thumb down. This locks in the arms and allows almost total use of the more powerful torso. Additionally the shaft hand also changes angles, bringing the large latissimus dorsi muscle into play. It naturally follows that in a Rev Sweep by the time the paddle is almost perpendicular to the centerline the maneuver needs to become a Bow Draw, thus eliminating any Reverse possibility and bringing in the stronger Bow Draw stroke.
KM: With all due respect,|
Posted by: pagayeur on Jun-09-14 8:14 PM (EST)
I know you know what a Christie is. Iíve seen you do a thousand or more and seen you teach that many at my symposium alone. I think however, you may not be remembering the Solo Rev Sweep. Itís an old school thing and not much in favor now-a-days. So, having said that, the FS Christie is not a Solo Rev Sweep. Also a palm roll would defeat the purpose of a true Solo Rev Sweep. In case some folks out there are confused by this, a FS Christie is a pivot turn to the Onside which starts by Initiating a turn while under way with a hard correction after a forward stroke. The paddle is then placed in the Low Brace position near the stern. The grip hand faces upward and the shaft hand is on top of the shaft and the backface of the blade is down. The paddler holds pressure on the blade while the hull pivots around it. When momentum starts to slow the paddler may execute a palm roll to set the grip hand up for a high brace conclusion which draws the Bow to the paddle. In a Solo Rev Sweep the placement is near the stern with the grip thumb up which means the blade edge is facing upward. Sweep the paddle toward the Bow and somewhere near perpendicular to the centerline rotate the grip thumb toward your armpit then all the way downward and touching the front of the shoulder oe right below. The shaft hand also rotates at an angle back toward the forearm. Lock that in and rotate the torso. Itís one of the strongest strokes in canoeing. In terms of strength, it is akin to a Cross Bow Draw, albeit not as forceful. The only comparison is that they are both pivots to the Onside. The Solo Rev Sweep can be done from a standing position, however.
I have seen this taught |
Posted by: canoeist11 on Jun-10-14 10:41 AM (EST)
the way GG describes. The idea being that you have more power with the thumb down going into the bow draw and it does involve releasing pressure on the grip using a palm roll. Occasionally I execute a reverse sweep this way, but not usually. whether the back face or power face is used, there is a tendency to create backward momentum, which is why it generally is used to execute a spin from a dead stop position. Using the reverse sweep while having any forward momentum would have a detrimental effect. Of course there can always arise a situation in that that might be what you would want to do, however there are likely more efficient ways to accomplish the goal.
Reverse sweep + transition + bow draw|
Posted by: Glenn_MacGrady on Jun-10-14 12:23 PM (EST)
Kayamedical Torso Pretzel|
Posted by: melenas on Jun-10-14 3:09 PM (EST)
Terminology & visualization are a bitch|
Posted by: Glenn_MacGrady on Jun-14-14 10:30 AM (EST)
Melenas, what you call the the "non-compound solo forward sweep" is just the normal sweep. It's done by PULLING (with your shaft hand-arm-shoulder) the POWER face from bow to stern.
Posted by: melenas on Jun-14-14 4:32 PM (EST)
yes, my "non-compound solo forward sweep" is just the normal forward sweep, but by "non-compound solo reverse sweep" I definitely meant #2 (which was the normal reverse sweep for me until this discussion), not #3, which is unfamiliar to me.
So do an experiment|
Posted by: Glenn_MacGrady on Jun-15-14 1:04 AM (EST)
Let's use the terminology of your normal reverse sweep and the compound (Gordon Grant) reverse sweep.
Hi Old Friend. |
Posted by: pagayeur on Jun-10-14 12:26 PM (EST)
It is my hope that one day we can be back on the water together and have a real discussion with paddle in hand. Meanwhile Iíll continue with these rather imperfect verbalizations. I agree the Solo Rev Sweep is one of the better ways to pivot a solo hull from a standstill. However, I do not use a palm roll for this maneuver. In this particular maneuver, a palm roll changes little for me. Why do one? Doing a palm roll creates little difference than keeping the thumb up? I roll the grip hand downward and shaft hand back in order to change the dynamic between the paddle and paddler. Turning the thumb downward takes more arm out of the picture and brings the strength of the whole torso into play, which is the whole purpose of this approach. The palm roll has its place, but not for me in this case.
I agree |
Posted by: canoeist11 on Jun-10-14 12:43 PM (EST)
I usually do the reverse sweep the way you describe. Just seems to work better with less goofing around, although I get the concept of GG method; just not my preferred way of doing it, or teaching it for that matter. In fact I seem to rarely have a need to spin the boat 180 degrees or more from a dead stop, anyway. I still believe it is a useful maneuver to teach, though.
Posted by: pblanc on Jun-10-14 12:32 PM (EST)
If you want to quickly pivot the bow of the canoe toward your on-side without killing forward momentum, use a cross-forward power stroke.
Yes, and all these velocity-keeping ...|
Posted by: Glenn_MacGrady on Jun-10-14 1:01 PM (EST)
... methods of turning on-side are potentially useful for my windy situation, which seems to have becalmed.
Finally got it...|
Posted by: eckilson on Jun-14-14 5:28 AM (EST)
you mention the paddle|
Posted by: pagayeur on Jun-14-14 3:03 PM (EST)
"still in the low brace position". You probably just misspoke, due to some previous discussion about the Low Brace. So to eview: In the Solo Rev. Sweep there is no low brace component. The paddle starts with a thumb-up Rev. Sweep then transitions into a thumb-down Bow Draw. HTH
Bad choice of words|
Posted by: eckilson on Jun-15-14 5:48 AM (EST)
Understand that there is no low brace or high brace involved. I was just trying to comment that not only will the grip hand thumb rotate down, but the grip hand also needs to move up as you start the bow draw. You describe is nicely below.
Not bad, just different, terminology|
Posted by: Glenn_MacGrady on Jun-15-14 11:24 AM (EST)
Differing terminologies have caused more confusion in canoeing than in just about any endeavor in which I ever have been engaged, whether professionally or as a hobbyist. The traditional Masonists, the bureaucratic ACA, the Pharisaic flatwater freestylers, and the nouveau whitewater squirt-creek-freestyle-rodeo boaters have all created a Tower of Terminological Babel -- often redundantly describing the same thing.
melenas, please believe this|
Posted by: pagayeur on Jun-15-14 2:53 AM (EST)
Here is the classic Solo Rev Sweep, described by GG in your reference: Letís say the paddler is standing still and wishes to turn to his onside. Stack the hands as in a forward stroke, rotate at the waist until facing the onside, drop the grip hand down with the thumb up to a position just outside the gunwale, so that the paddle is horizontal and the Powerface is almost touching the hull near the stern stem and top blade edge just under the water. Begin turning forward at the waist so that you feel pressure on the Backface and the hull begins a pivot to the onside. Sometime before the paddle gets perpendicular to the hull, begin rotating the grip hand thumb toward the body while simultaneously rotating the shaft hand backward with the knuckles toward the forearm to form a upside down figure ďLĒ. This will change the position of the Powerface and Backface and the the Powerface will now be facing forward and feeling pressure. The shaft armís elbow should be at your side near the waist and the grip hand should be near the body below the shaft armís armpit. Continue rotating at the waist ( this is a classic Bow Draw) until the Powerface nears the Bow. At this point the paddler is set up to lift the grip hand upward, turn the thumb out, and stack the shaft hand under it for a Forward Stroke if desired. I am not aware the GG ever suggested a Palm Roll for this maneuver. It makes no sense to use one in this case. No mechanical advantage is gained by a Palm Roll in this situation except practicing your Palm Roll. I had not seen the thumb up all the way through, taught by anyone. It is much weaker mechanically that the above described approach. HTH
well, that version is taught|
Posted by: pblanc on Jun-15-14 6:03 AM (EST)
although I agree that is has less mechanical advantage.
That is the way I learned|
Posted by: eckilson on Jun-15-14 7:10 AM (EST)
the reverse sweep.
Difference is whitewater hull|
Posted by: Glenn_MacGrady on Jun-15-14 10:54 AM (EST)
Lessels (and anyone else) can turn that very short, highly rockered WW hull with just the first half of a forward or reverse sweep. Not much technique is required to turn a WW hull 180 degrees, not even a heel. Literally, a four year old can do it.
No argument there...|
Posted by: eckilson on Jun-15-14 12:19 PM (EST)
I think the reverse swept/bow draw combination stroke will turn any boat faster than the reverse sweep alone. I've just never hear of that combination stroke being called a "solo reverse sweep".
Posted by: pblanc on Jun-15-14 12:36 PM (EST)
I haven't either. I have heard it called the compound reverse sweep.
Similar to a christie|
Posted by: Glenn_MacGrady on Jun-15-14 3:14 PM (EST)
The paddler in this Mark Molina video gets so much turn out of her low speed initiation (via a stern pry = reverse draw = inverted draw = pushaway) that she doesn't need to use much of a forward sweep on the low brace move or the bow draw conclusion move. She uses a palm roll to go into the brace/sweep and another palm roll to go into the dynamic bow draw.
This thread has gotten away from|
Posted by: pagayeur on Jun-15-14 1:14 PM (EST)
the OP. The question was about "Canoeing: A Trailside Guide by Gordon Grant and the text about what he terms a Solo Reverse Sweep. What I described above is hopefully an explanation of that specific topic. I see no mention of Palm Roll or the term "Compound" in this section. Although not discussed in this book, I agree that WW canoeists seldom use this and its best use is from a stand still in non WW canoes.
"Compound" seems perfectly relevant|
Posted by: Guideboatguy on Jun-15-14 1:26 PM (EST)
I couldn't agree with you more|
Posted by: pagayeur on Jun-15-14 9:17 PM (EST)
I'm just saying the word "Compound" is not used in the article in question and the use of it in this thread has confused some folks.
Whitewater canoeists |
Posted by: eckilson on Jun-15-14 1:31 PM (EST)
use that stoke all the time - it just would'd be called a solo reverse sweep. Not sure what it would be called - reverse sweep/bow draw? It's also not explained very well in the book. You do a better job of explaining it above.
The reason I went into a detailed |
Posted by: pagayeur on Jun-15-14 9:14 PM (EST)
explanation is, just as you say, it is not explained very well in the article and that I think is the source of a lot of confusion. As a result it has been discussed around many a campfire, since its publication.