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  Posted by: datakoll on May-08-14 6:57 PM (EST)
   Category: unassigned 

I was advising a learner roller on how I was learning but my experience wasn’t shared by expert kayakers.

Have not read of similar or watched on Utube nor experienced the double float practice taught by experienced kayak instructors.

I watched Ford’s rolling video. The animation is excellent for comparing then adjusting your motions to the animation.

Exercised with a weighted steel pipe sitting on a Pilates Ball. Strengthen muscles for the Ford twist.

I did not practice a hip snap. Wayne Horodowitch of USK has a valuable bracing clinic video where Wayne suggests hip snap practice on a lawn while in a kayak. Not my kayak. Use Wayne’s.

The muscle motion without a hip snap pulls your body out of the kayak !

I have a Backup roll aid while learning. The Backup backs up a good roll.

I was impressed by Utube video of a half capsize with paddler floating on his back n pfd. I bought a foam paddle float to partner the inflatable float on board.

Leaning over into the half capsize with paddle floated at ends, down into the water with paddle in surface roll start position, I swept paddle, hip snapped, rolled up first try.

Hip snap practice. Roll analysis while actually for real rolling.

Try this.

My Solstice Titan is equipped with a water bag weighted keel description found in this forum. The Titan designed for touring needs ballast.

You may add weight for practice or touring with water bags. A steel rod or 2 taped down on the keel onto a clean surface with quality duct tape would hold for practicing.

 Great Products from the Buyers' Guide:

Deck Rigging Gear

Kong Cable

Paddle Floats

Bent Shaft Canoe Paddles

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Messages in this Topic


  Way too complicated.
  Posted by: Dr_Disco on May-08-14 10:11 PM (EST)
Get Eric Jackson's rolling video or get some competent instruction.
  Is there a question here?
  Posted by: dc9mm on May-08-14 11:22 PM (EST)
If so I missed it.

There are several good videos for teaching someone to roll. A class is best but if that's not available then a video DVD might help you. Since I roll with Greenland sticks not sure what is a good video for euro paddle guys. You might also try video recording yourself to help you compare to a DVD video to see how you differ from what the DVD shows you to do.

Other than that not sure how anyone here can help you. Assuming that was the question which Iam still not sure if there was a question ?
  learn to roll double paddle float
  Posted by: datakoll on May-10-14 9:35 AM (EST)
The double float hip snap and roll practice is a method not a question.

Immediate availability for hip snap practice on the water from a lay over brace supported by the floats transistioning into roll tries...

goes beyond current roll instruction.

I haven't found videos. Suggest a link ?
  It goes beyond current lessons because..
  Posted by: Celia on May-10-14 12:36 PM (EST)
in many cases, the person learns to rely too much of the paddle float and muscles up. So it holds them back from getting a reliable roll in normal conditions.

I am not going to argue percentages, but there is a sound reason for the lack you see. That said, there IS video by Wayne Horodowich demonstrating a roll up with a paddle float.

That's if I understand exactly what this post is about to start with - I confess to not getting why it was posted on the first few reads.
  rolling advice and suggestions
  Posted by: datakoll on May-10-14 1:38 PM (EST)
Where is the Horodowitch or Jackson video ?

Muscle up ? Rely on ?

I assume if this method is practiced beyond rolling with a paddle, the practitioner could learn rolling with hands no paddle.
  Muscle Up?
  Posted by: dajarr on May-17-14 2:32 PM (EST)
You shouldn't need or want to "muscle up". A good roll is technique and timing driven. Any good instructor will help you get to this.
  Posted by: seadart on May-10-14 7:34 PM (EST)
I think you have all been had ... LOL

Seem a bit robotic to anyone?

$Run Go buy a video
Eric Jackson
Rolling and Bracing
  Posted by: Celia on May-10-14 9:02 PM (EST)
-- Last Updated: May-10-14 11:40 PM EST --

a) Agreeing with seadart by now
b) If OPer is real and you need help finding anything by Wayne Horodowich or SKA on the web (including probably on this site), you certainly are hurting on background to advise anyone on how to roll.

Regardless, I don't have a clue what the OPer is talking about at this point. Sentence structure does have a purpose...

  You should read his posts at SKM's
  Posted by: pikabike on May-10-14 11:12 PM (EST), if it still exists.

Must be some good drugs.
  no find
  Posted by: datakoll on May-11-14 10:31 PM (EST)
No, I looked. Jackson Roll and Brace as a search subject doesn't lead from a double paddle float.


The concept is transistion. You are in water, lean over onto the double paddle floats then practice HIP SNAPPING....backed with analysis from Ford's animation that is stoppable/repeatable.

From the same position and probably relatively dry with a tight spray cover set, you try rolling from your hip snap development.

I'm salty but lacked practice. I rolled with the foam float first try after hip snapping 5-6 times.

My experience with 'roll instruction' is total loss. No value.

If you have a drug problem you should switch to beer.
  Jackson ?
  Posted by: datakoll on May-11-14 10:49 PM (EST)
searching JACKSON KAYAK VIDEO doesn't relate to double paddle float roll photos of the Upper Cowlitz tho.....

  Posted by: Celia on May-11-14 11:08 PM (EST)
So surprising that you did not profit from instruction...
  what Dr. Disco said
  Posted by: slushpaddler on May-12-14 8:47 AM (EST)
-- Last Updated: May-12-14 9:57 AM EST --

Just my opinion but I like to try and keep it simple and as far removed. This reads like learning a good golf swing, which always paralyzes me.

The hip snap in the grass or sand thing is effective because it removes fear of immersion. To reinforce this, move to the water and use a partner or pier for support. Works great with a swim mask and snorkle: tell the student to keep facing the bottom while working that hip twist (I think calling it a "snap" is misleading).

I'm no instructor but I tell people that when they land a few, they'll grasp how natural and reflexive the motion is. So you can usually spot what's keeping them from getting it. A paddle float does help but at some point you have to remove it. Maybe the problem in your case is not the instructor, but the quality of instruction, or the presence of fixed notions in the students' head.

  flashback from the sea kayaker forum
  Posted by: nickjc on May-12-14 3:37 PM (EST)
But this is much more understandable than previous posts from the old sea kayaker magazine forum(RIP). The old stuff read like some serious drug addled ramblings from the 60's.
As far as learning with a paddle float or back float. I don't know any instructor who is going to teach that. This would encourage using the flotation to bring you up and not teach the roll at all. They teach by standing in the water next to your boat and guiding you and your paddle through the motions. Starting with finding your balance with a balance brace, and moving from there to a roll. I've done this and seen it done countless times.
  I've heard of it being done
  Posted by: pikabike on May-12-14 7:05 PM (EST)
I knew a paddler who said an instructor taught him to roll up using a paddlefloat. As far as I know, he never progressed beyond that.

At least two other people (not instructors) told me I had the option of using a paddle float when I was learning to roll. I said no thanks.

But it shows that there are (or used to be) some people who used that method.
  I've used the paddle float
  Posted by: rjd9999 on May-16-14 10:00 AM (EST)
to teach people the hip snap. It enables the paddler to hold a near capsize position, but keep their head in a comfortable place (at, but not below, water level).

I've only done this a few times and only with paddlers who have some of the mechanical elements of the roll working, but just fail to time the hip and paddle motion.

Using the paddle float for the entire roll will, I agree, tend to condition folk to rely on paddle leverage rather than the body motion to execute the roll.

Those who self-teach a roll, as it seems this poster may be, often end up with an incomplete understanding of what needs to be done and when. Many believe the paddle motion, not the hip snap is the most important element of the roll.

Due to back injuries, I have more hip mobility on one side than the other, and thus have a much better roll on one side. When performing a roll on my left, I do have to really execute the paddle motion well to bring the boat to a near capsize position and then drive the boat down and under my butt with the hip (the boat is usually at, or just beyond, perpendicular to the water). Often, I have to add some sculls on that side to finish the motion. It isn't smooth, it isn't perfect, but it works. If one needs this type of adaptation to the skill, it is unlikely one will develop same when using a paddle float.

  As a well-known big dumb guy,
  Posted by: ezwater on May-13-14 1:15 PM (EST)
I taught myself c-1 roll and later kayak roll on my own, no paddle floats, and only a bit of hip snap drill. I guess I was just lucky to stumble onto it. It's hard for me to understand all the stuff about paddle floats, dry land rolling trainer things, etc.

You need a clear idea of what you're going to try to do. The best paddle float is the naked paddle blade. And I guess you may benefit from being a klutz like me.
  people are different
  Posted by: slushpaddler on May-13-14 6:32 PM (EST)
So it's best to have options to resort to when teaching. The onshore exercise gets some of them over a psychological hump.
  I would bet a 100 kroner
  Posted by: betmkaplan on May-15-14 9:12 AM (EST)
that Datakoll speaks English as a second language, and his cradle tongue is Scandanvian. So cut him a coil or two of slack, eh?^_^
  And if I do want to learn...
  Posted by: KayHH on May-15-14 1:09 PM (EST)
I like to wander off on the water on my own, but it makes my husband insane. He is worried some bass boat is going to tip me over with a killer wake. I promised I would learn to roll, but am having a hard time finding instruction in my area. I live in Morristown TN (between Knoxville & tricities) and am willing to drive a couple of hours if I have to. Can anybody recomend a good instructor? Or even one that would return my calls or emails?

  Rolling Instruction
  Posted by: jbernard on May-15-14 5:43 PM (EST)
If you go here
you will find a complete list of American Canoe Association instructors by state and discipline. It lists their name, location, what they teach, and how to contact them. Look for an L4 or L5 white water (or sea kayak) instructor who is close enough for you to get to. It wouldn't hurt to contact someone 3 or 4 hours away, they may be willing to meet you somewhere in the middle for a lesson. Rolling is a great skill but it is fun all on its own. Good luck!
  summer !
  Posted by: datakoll on May-15-14 7:42 PM (EST)
Nantahala Outdoor Center, NC !

124 miles down the road.

Bring the tent. And a wet suit from

I'm posting a foolproof, teacher not needed, brace and roll learning exercise NOT a question.
  What boat do you paddle?
  Posted by: Celia on May-16-14 8:16 AM (EST)
While it is correct that every kayak can be rolled by someone, there are kayaks that make learning a great deal easier. I suggest that you chat with any instructor you find about whether you should try starting in your own boat or borrow one from them. Most coaches have a few used boats in their garage for this kind of purpose.

When we started our BCU stuff, we worked in a way that was suggested above. We found a local BCU certed coach and worked individually with him, highly motivated to do so after we had a good look at the quality of the water in the neareast center that taught BCU skills. The floating swan crap in their main bay wasn't working for us.

I really like the idea of individual instruction, of course as long as you and the instructor click. The tyranny of the clock in evening pool sessions is not always conducive to progress.
  double float !
  Posted by: datakoll on May-16-14 8:48 AM (EST)

a paddle with floats on both ends eliminates the 'instructor'

an underlying reason for negative discussion
  Posted by: Fadedred on May-16-14 10:49 AM (EST)

  Posted by: slushpaddler on May-16-14 12:32 PM (EST)
-- Last Updated: May-16-14 2:16 PM EST --

Hopefully you don't use inflatable surrogates in your personal life.

  In case you are that thick...
  Posted by: Celia on May-16-14 2:06 PM (EST)
No one is taking your double paddle float junk seriously.

This is a mental issue, not a language problem.
  I agree the poster is a nutbag.........
  Posted by: blackboat on May-16-14 2:51 PM (EST)
.............and probably just of the best Greenland rolling practitioners in this country teaches with double paddle float.....................very successfully.
  Point may be that he teaches
  Posted by: Celia on May-16-14 5:06 PM (EST)
As opposed to video from heck only knows who.

The GP can be a different feeling if coming from a Euro, since its buoyancy is spread out so differently. And it is not unheard of for the Greenland folks to teach from a static brace as a distinct point in the roll. I can see some arguments for doing this with a GP depending on approach.

Not with a Euro blade - if the paddle is the issue IMO it produces a better result to ditch the paddle and start with objects to aid a hand roll. In hindsight, I realized that would have worked better and a whole lot faster for me.
  Nordman nej. Jeg tror han er helt sprø.
  Posted by: seadart on May-16-14 12:35 AM (EST)
  I concur!
  Posted by: amf on May-16-14 11:49 AM (EST)
  Posted by: datakoll on May-16-14 6:56 PM (EST)
A roll or brace instructor holds your kayak helping your roll to completion ?

How do we coordinate your uncoordinated moves with the instructor’s boat flip ?

Where is the feedback from your more successful towards rolling moves…coming from ? How would your nervous system differentiate the instructor’s motions from your motions ? As a learning process ?

Do we learn C-2 then C-1 ? Is ice dancing easier as one or with a stranger as partner ?

With the double float exercise you lean out into the water supported with a float at both ends paddle then hip snap.

After 30 minutes snapping, remove the bag float then practice rolling your new stage hip snap.

Take a break to learn where your hull stabilizes leaned over.

Try bracing practice from the double float float.

So why are paddlers working with instructors who help them roll the boat by grabbing one end ?

I guess they’re stupid.
  you're taking this too personally
  Posted by: slushpaddler on May-17-14 8:55 AM (EST)
IMO if it works do it. If one needs paddle floats to help a particular student learn a roll, and the student doesn't rely on those paddle floats to the point it retards their mastering of a roll - more power to you.

Surely you can see the point to caution against the floats being a crutch. You don't have to invent a narrative to support your viewpoint.

  Posted by: datakoll on May-17-14 9:12 AM (EST)

The suggested exercise is superior to other teaching methods.

A significant response percentage suggests significant misanalysis by the posters of basic rolling mechanics.

But they roll ! and so understand rolling ....we lump instructors into this area.

  Posted by: Fadedred on May-17-14 9:47 AM (EST)
is No "ONE" method that works for everyone......sorry, one size doesn't fit all
Best Wishes

BTW...I don't flip another persons kayak to have them learn a roll...that is akin to throwing a child off of a pier in order to teach them to swim....very little that is good can be accomplished with that.
  I never needed 'em
  Posted by: slushpaddler on May-17-14 4:26 PM (EST)
-- Last Updated: May-17-14 4:29 PM EST --

Like the majority of the class, I got my roll first pool session. We had good instructors. You could tell they were good because they had a nice bag of instructional tricks to resort to for people who didn't get it as easily, although I don't remember a paddle float and I don't remember anyone grabbing boats.
The comments you've made lead me to believe that you went through a bad instructional experience. And your conjecture that using paddlefloats is the superior method is merely that.

  A paddle float is handy for rescue
  Posted by: kayamedic on May-16-14 7:53 PM (EST)
and for feeling the kinesthetics of getting your paddle on top of the water. Before I had failure after failure because of a diving blade that never started on the surface, before experiencing the position ( with the crutch ) of the float for one time. Not the whole roll , just the set up position.

Then the float bag went back in the cockpit. Period.

BTW no instructor has EVER grabbed my boat.

Seems you want to muscle the boat up. Rolls don't work like that.
  Posted by: datakoll on May-17-14 7:17 PM (EST)
The double paddle float exercise posted promoting the efficacy of the drill. Needs a video standing off Utube.

My experience with roll instructors is negative….minus negative. A clueless group.

I rolled up first time try with a paddle float but the snap was weak, badly timed with paddle motion leaving a push off the float THEN a vestigial second snap with head in wrong direction.

The balance brace discovered on Utube:

Tried the B Brace….comfortable giving the idea of balancing off paddle with floats at the ends. I would practice hip snapping, learn the Solstice lean angles, and move into roll practice with the foam float.

The double float allows a learning paddler freedom to lean out ONTO and ON the water holding the paddle at 90 degrees with an outstretched arm.

Immediate success developing coordination. A hip snap workout using comparative hip snap analysis watching Ford’s roll video animation fed into the best roll yet.
The Solstice was lightly loaded with MSR 10L water bags on keel as in the water bags post found herein. I had developed ‘strength, fluid movement’ hip snapping off a pilates ball with a weighted steel pipe for paddle.

There is no float dependence here. FD surfaces as a concern. With snap practice preceeding roll practice, snap motion brings the kayak up not dependence on float buoyancy. Like so:

A poster dismissed the double float practice as a minor element in a universe of more effective exercises…without writing what ex…but we disagree.

Like back flips, the nervous enervation, muscular coordination are specific to back flipping. As are the exercises leading to learning back flipping. The field is limited. There are many strength ex but coordination ex are few.

The double float ex maxes in here on all levels.

A learner will naturally move into aggressive brace practice following snap and balance double float experience.

The new paddler can reach out n float watch osprey sail by, blue sky clouds, whispering sea winds…and SNAP !


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