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  looking for a used solo canoe
  Posted by: mattg on Feb-24-14 10:36 PM (EST)
   Category: Canoes 

Hello all. I am where so many of you have been, and I'm looking for a bit of guidance. After a long summer of paddling a Penobscot 16 Rx, usually by myself, I accepted that I should be in a solo canoe. The Penobscot is destined to be that "first canoe" that I'll likely blather about in the future, so it will stay with me. But I'm 5'6", about 145 lbs, and a narrowish solo just sounds so much more appropriate than paddling a tandem heeled over all day every day, especially when I rarely even get out on the water over night.

For now, I've found that I really enjoy getting in any water I can find, often a little river near my home in Vermont. I will often get out for a few hours, paddling upstream until I can't because of time or skill or strength of riffles (really like messing around in the riffles and seeing how far I can navigate up them - hours can be spent on this), then paddling back down. Ponds and reservoirs aren't uncommon for me either, and the lake is nearby... I'm sure it will go much further than this - weekends, longer trips... faster water for sure.

I would definitely describe myself as a beginner, but a fast learner with a penchant for obsessing over my pastimes, and pretty athletic and adventurous. I'm getting to be OK with what I consider to be J and C strokes, but I'm sure that when I take lessons I'll realize otherwise. I like to kneel mostly, with a rest for my knees from time to time. Sit and switch is fine sometimes, but other paddling styles seem more interesting to me. Heeled over is fun...

So, after poking around and around in circles on the internet, I think I could be very happy with a 13-15' canoe, beam under 30", I'm guessing 1.5+" rocker, acceleration and nimbleness trumping top speed and initial stability... I could go on, but I'll stop. Oh, no rock bashing yet, and I'm handy and like to work on the things I us, and I like to go on the light side, so maybe a stronger kevlar layup? I dream of a wildfire or something of that sort, but many do, and I'm sure that there are other more reasonable options. And if my barn full of skis is any indication, there will be more than one solo canoe - I just need a reasonable starting point, not perfection.

Suggestions? Advice on where to look for a used boat? I don't see a lot advertised locally. Thanks for reading my life story.

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Messages in this Topic

 

  right now I did a search
  Posted by: kayamedic on Feb-24-14 10:51 PM (EST)
on www.searchtempest.com and did not find anything currenly for sale with your parameters. That is not to say that your request is invalid.. just watch that website. Its a a composite of several search engines.

That said if you want a true experience re trying out solo canoes in the 13 to 15 foot range that fits your style the Adirondack Canoe Symposium might just fit your needs.

I know, sounds like a shameless plug but there are about 50 solo boats there. Many are of different makers, and all are available to try out if you ask the owners. That you are amenable to kneeling opens up vast horizons.

Can you wait till July?


http://www.freestylecanoeing.com/adirondack.html
 
 
  Thanks kayamedic...
  Posted by: mattg on Feb-25-14 10:32 AM (EST)
I didn't know about that site. I will watch it closely.

The symposium looks like a blast and something I'll do if it works out. I'm not sure that I can wait that long, but maybe I won't find anything before then anyhow. I'm also afraid that if I start trying all those beautiful boats I might get it in my head that I should hold out for the ideal, which may be unrealistic considering availability of used boats and finances. At this stage it might be more realistic to purchase something that reasonably fits the bill. Then I can learn what I like/don't like, get more paddling experience, more money, and fine tune my parameters for my next (inevitable) purchase. I also can't shake the idea of building my own sometime in the future...
 
 
  used intermediate sized solo
  Posted by: CEWilson on Feb-25-14 10:15 AM (EST)
I have a comprehensive listing of solo boat dimensions, in production and "heritage", that may help on the search. email charliewilson77@gmail.com for an electronic copy.

At your size and commitment/aggressiveness there are a few to consider. I think you probably want something under 30", 28.5-27.5. Rocker is a bugaboo as it is really a drafting convention. 1.5 " to Winters is 2.5 to Yost. 0 to yost is 1.25 to Wenonah?? So it goes.

28.5" Touring Canoes, preferably differentially rockered and with waterline length to width ratios 6.5-7, would include Colden's Nomad, Hemlock's Peregrine and Swift's Kee. 15 with lots of NLS models including Bell's Merlin II. 27.5 Touring canoes include Hemlock's Kestrel, Placid's RapidFire and Swift's new Kee 14, with fewer "Heritage" models available.

Narrower Sport canoes, L/W ratio ~ 6, with more and symmetrical rocker are very few indeed, Colden's FlashFire and a couple NLS BlackHawk and Curtis bottoms.

Living where you do, i.e. guessing as to used availability, I'd look for a MRC Liberty, Curtis Vagabond or LadyBug and hope for a Bell Flashfire. The Adk Symposium would present an array of hulls to try and put that pesky J stroke behind you.
 
 
  In the classifieds right here
  Posted by: TommyC1 on Feb-25-14 11:00 AM (EST)
there is a Wenonah Rendezvous kevlar in Vermont.

I've not paddled one but my understanding is that it might fit your criteria.
 
 
  Rendezvous likes to be
  Posted by: kayamedic on Feb-25-14 11:03 AM (EST)
upright. Heeled over its a bit ......iffy. The hull shape is widest low. However its a boat to consider.
 
 
  smaller
  Posted by: rblturtle on Feb-25-14 11:38 AM (EST)
I agree with those who recomend a narrower canoe. I would add shorter also. A Flashfire ,if you could find one would probibly be the ultimate. I think most solo paddlers paddle too big a boat.I have perswaded many solo paddlers to try smaller boats and they like them. At your size/weight you could go even smaller than a Flash,but that's slim pikkin's in that size range. also almost all the solo padlers I know started with a hard tracking boat before they knew how to make it go straight,and then later wish for a boat that will manover easier.
My 2 cents,have fun,Turtle

 
 
  different for composite
  Posted by: c2g on Feb-25-14 4:46 PM (EST)
Your description is correct for the Royalex version. The composite version has the bubble significantly higher up the side and is a much more responsive boat. I would never own another royalex version, but would be happy to get my hands on a composite one.
 
 
  I was actually thinking of
  Posted by: kayamedic on Feb-25-14 5:16 PM (EST)
a FreeStyle student who wanted to heel his composite Rendezvous to the rail.

He got very wet several times as it turtled. Eventually he got a WildFire.
 
 
  might wanna check out where Dave
  Posted by: bigspencer on Feb-26-14 9:03 AM (EST)
-- Last Updated: Feb-26-14 9:11 AM EST --

Curtis will be hangin' for events this spring. 14' info isn't up yet. Ditto on the previously mentioned...
$.01

 
 
  LDC has been
  Posted by: kayamedic on Feb-26-14 9:32 AM (EST)
at all the Western PA Solo Canoe Rendezvous in the past so I expect he will be there again, along with others in the industry like Charlie Wilson and Dave Yost

http://www.wpascr.org/
 
 
  Wow!
  Posted by: mattg on Feb-26-14 10:46 PM (EST)
This is great! Thank you to all who have replied. It's refreshing to see my interest mirrored back and amplified so sincerely.

There seems to be a fair consensus that a sub-30" beam would be optimal. That is more and more attractive to me, especially when I throw into the equation that even for 5'6" I have short legs. I imagine that narrow would make for comfier kneeling and better control.

What's more, I tend to favor compact, light and nimble over roomy, tough and straight-line when I choose gear, cars, tools, etc. - something of an efficiency and skills nut. So narrow, closer to 13', and less focus on tracking than turning. I bet something like a Flashfire would be a nice find!

I suppose that puts the Rendezvous out of the running. Too bad - a Vermont purchase would be nice. It would also be really nice to make it to the Western PA event...

Thank you all once again... and please do go on if you want to - I won't stop soaking in the info!

-Matt
 
 
  Yep, Flashfire would match your desires
  Posted by: Yanoer on Feb-27-14 12:39 AM (EST)
for nimble, sporty and a vehicle for skills development.

Another good option is a used Curtis Lady Bug, which is very similar to the Flashfire, but a bit tamer. Lady Bugs are rarer than Flashfires.

I'm 5'6" and 160 lbs, own both and both fit me well.

Wenonah Sandpiper is tamer than the Lady Bug, but I've come to greatly appreciate it since acquiring it last summer.

Of the above, the Flashfire is the only model still in production.

Even though the above three boats are technically better fits for you, don't pass up a chance for a Wildfire, which is a bit larger.

A Blackhawk Zephyr would also provide you with endless hours of amusement.

Even a Bell Merlin II or Curtis Vagabond would be viable options.

Good luck and have fun with your search.
 
 
  Another option
  Posted by: rblturtle on Feb-27-14 6:54 AM (EST)
I also have a Mohawk solo 13. They are more common and cheaper than Flashfires. A little wider,slower,and less responsive and refined than a Flash,but a good,fun paddle.I use mine a lot for creeks and such. They were only made in Royalex/Royalite. My Royalite one is app 38#. I beleve they have been used for freestyle student loaners.
Have fun,Turtle
 
 
  An answer and a lament
  Posted by: Glenn_MacGrady on Feb-28-14 3:38 PM (EST)

ANSWER: For your size in composite, a Hemlock Kestrel or a Bell/Placid/Colden Flashfire. The Kestrel will track easier; the Flash will turn easier.

LAMENT: So many of the answers, mine included, recommend hulls designed in the early 80's to early 90's plus some that are mid-to-late 90's tweaks of earlier designs. This is evidence of two axioms: FIRST, that physicists, mathematicians, artists, musicians and canoe designers often do their best work in their earliest years; and, SECOND, that it's dang hard to stay in business designing, manufacturing or selling open canoes.
 
 
  Millbrook
  Posted by: c2g on Feb-28-14 7:24 PM (EST)
You might want to take a look at the Millbrook boats website and see if anything catches your eye. I was thinking their 13' solo might be a possibility for you. It would be a new boat, not a used one, but the prices are a lot better than the competition.
 
 
  Sub 30" and maybe 13-14'ish
  Posted by: mattg on Feb-28-14 11:42 PM (EST)
...sounds right to me the more I look around and read comments. Like I said, kneeling, 5'6" with particularly short legs. Mohawk sure does have the price down to a pretty amazing level, but at this point waiting for something a bit narrower makes sense to me. And I would like to try composite.

Regarding millbrook... the closest that I saw is the Flashback, and that looks pretty heavily rockered compared to other possibilities. Think I'd be going in circles.

As I read more I can see "not too picky" turning to "picky". But please, keep the suggestions coming!
 
 
  "The Fade" Not True
  Posted by: CEWilson on Mar-01-14 2:51 PM (EST)
-- Last Updated: Mar-03-14 12:28 AM EST --

Three solo designers have addressed smaller paddlers. Pat Moore with his Reverie 1, Phil Sigglekow with KittyHawk and Shadow 11.7 and David Yost. Yost drew and stripped the StarLight for Sawyer, the MayFly and Vagabond for Curtis, the Vag all in the 80s. He drew FlashFire for Bell in the 90s. Vagabond was copied as Hemlock's KestralFlash, Flash moved to Colden canoe and DY drew SpitFire and RapidFire for Placid boatworks in the first decade of the new century. He has now revisited the Vag/Rapid concept, a narrow solo tripper for compact folk, for Swift with the Keewaydin 14.

DY's earlier boats were arched, his later ones feature more elliptical bottoms, improving speed and stability and often differential rocker, improving tracking and maneuverability. He has recently included stepped bow rocker.

No one comparing MayFly and SpitFire would prefer the older boat; Spit is faster, more stable, tighter tracking, more maneuverable and has easier reach across the rail. Similarly, RapidFire is a significant improvement over Vagabond/Kestrel in stability, speed, tracking, maneuverability and reach across the rail. Since Kee 14 has yet to emerge from the mold, it's hard to say, but DY wanted to increase forward efficiency in exchange for a little less speed, i.e. less drag at recreational speeds. Chances are pretty good he has achieved his goal, he usually does. The little Kee wil be available in pack canoe trim and with a kneeling seat for those who fit it kneeling.

So it isn't like Lord of the Rings, where the old work is presumed better. More recent small canoe designs all improve on earlier variants, there just aren't very many of them. That is due to two trends; the public's tendency to take McDuck's advice and "Super Size"themselves, and sloth, most paddlers preferring the double blade kayak paddle for its short, flat, learning curve.

 
 
  Not entirely clear on your point
  Posted by: Glenn_MacGrady on Mar-01-14 4:00 PM (EST)
The Placid Spitfire and Rapidfire are undecked kayaks designed to be double bladed from a bottom seat. They are not the kind of solo kneeling canoes for use with a single blade about which the OP is asking. Yeah, I know, some advanced paddlers CAN kneel and single blade a Placid boat, but let's be serious about the primary design intent of those "pack" hulls, which is not that.

So there's ONE (?) DY kneeling/single blade solo canoe design this century, a Kee 14, which is not yet even on the market. I think this proves the point.

From about '78 to '98, but mostly in the 80's, DY, Galt, Moore, Siggelkow, Winters, Deal, Kruger, Henry, and whomever at Old Town were designing dozens and dozens of interesting flatwater solo kneeling hulls -- many of which are still popular and being reprised or copied by other builders.

The OP might also look at the Millbrook Souhegan, which some members here own.

 
 
  Actually
  Posted by: CEWilson on Mar-01-14 4:36 PM (EST)
-- Last Updated: Mar-03-14 12:30 AM EST --

Placid's SpitFire and Rapid Fire are canoes that happen to be rigged and sold for pack canoe usage. They have been and can be ordered in kneeling format. Joe adds an 11 oz carbon belly band to reinforce hanging a seat from the rails, a kneeling thwart or kneeling seat is fitted and the boats are ready to paddle. There is not one item in either hull design that favors sitting low with double paddle over kneeling with a single. [I did not mention Pb's Shadow because it is too low and narrow for kneeling, and, at 16 ft, has great gobs of skin drag.]

As we were discussing solo canoes for smaller folks whose legs barely touch the ground, many solo designers were not mentioned because they didn't do the smaller boats we were discussing. I did sin against Jim Henry. His Swede form Pearl was an excellent solo for smaller folk when the strange saddle was removed and a kneeling thwart or seat hung. And, Bob Brown designed the KittyHawk for Phil at BlackHawk, I should have mentioned him too. Mike talked about canoe size series but never did a full set.

The solo canoe "bump" was a short one, because the American public doesn't seem interested in long apprenticeships, as alluded too above. That said, Ted Bell has commissioned two new solo boats in 2013/ 2014, at 30 in wide and 14.5 and 15.5 long, both address average to larger paddlers, and Swift has a newish, 2012, solo in the same size range, the big sister to their 2014 "compact person's" boat. Four new solos in three years isn't bad, but only one seems narrow enough to fit our OP and none are likely to be found used anytime soon.

 
 
  Rapidfire
  Posted by: yknpdlr on Mar-01-14 5:11 PM (EST)
-- Last Updated: Mar-01-14 5:19 PM EST --

I paddle a Rapidfire with the high rail mounted seat. I wish it was even higher. I am a single blade paddler in all weather and detest using the double blade. But I do race that boat in the Adirondack 90-miler, and the solo-rec class that was essentially created for that type of boat requires use of the double blade. Well, ok, so I have conceded and done several 90-milers in that mode. I would like to have the kneeling modified Rapidfire to play around recreationally on my knees, but my old knees can't paddle all day like that, and I don't believe you can have both seated and kneeling options in the same RF boat.

When not racing in the 90-miler, my primary use of the Rapidfire is for personal race training when I am not able to train with others with my usually voyageur (sometimes C4, sometimes C2) race team. I really like paddling the Rapidfire single blade, and I paddle it quite fast using a variety of combined correction strokes (heavy on the pitch) rather than hit and switch. I am very tempted by the even sleeker Shadow canoe, and have a couple of hours in it, but consider that a single purpose boat, a primary purpose design to win the solo-rec class in the 90-miler.

 
 
  For Glenn...
  Posted by: snowgoose.skipper on Mar-03-14 4:06 AM (EST)
-- Last Updated: Mar-03-14 4:07 AM EST --

Rapidfire, Kringelfieber, 2010: definitely NOT a pack canoe!

http://bit.ly/1lue8hd

 
 
  Kayaks
  Posted by: rblturtle on Mar-03-14 12:26 PM (EST)
This reminds me of kayak people that come to my annual solo Canoeapoluza to get introduced to solo canoes,and say they will switch to a dubble blade pack type canoe so they will now be paddling a canoe?
Turtle
 
 
  Explain
  Posted by: CEWilson on Mar-03-14 1:03 PM (EST)
-- Last Updated: Mar-03-14 1:59 PM EST --

Turtle;

Please elucidate the significant differences between your Vagabond/Kestrel canoe and RapidFire. Agreeing with Lazerfield and Morris that numeration sharpens our thinking process, I'll provide specs, from the designer, to help you clarify and promote your thoughts.


lengths: Vagabond 14.7' RapidFire 15'

widths:
Vagabond 25.5"rails, 27.5"max, 25.5" 4"wl
RapidFire 24" rails, 27.5" max, 24" 3" w/l

Shear:
Vagabond bow 15.5", mid 11.5", stern 14"
RapidFire bow 17", mis 11", stern 15"

Rocker bow/stern
Vagabond 1.25/1.25"
RapidFire 1.5/1

We've seen Vagabonds/Kestrels with low, pack canoe seating and Rapids with kneeling seats, so it can't be that. Is it the four inches in length, the 1.5" narrower rails, the steeper shear and 0.5" difference in midships depth or the differential rocker that makes your Kestrel a canoe and Rapid a kayak?

 
 
  rapidfire
  Posted by: rblturtle on Mar-03-14 4:19 PM (EST)
Actually, I was seriously considering a Rapidfire set up for kneeling when I bought my Kestrel as they seemed extremly similar. I have never seen or paddled a kneeling Rapid,but would like to. I was refering to sit on the bottom boats being considered the same as kneeling canoes. To me there is a world of difference. Around here we have a continous,frendly light side/dark side interchange in which I encourage people to try single bladekneeling solo paddling-hence my annual event. Different strokes.
Turtle
Turtle
 
 
  Turtle you aren't making the distinction
  Posted by: kayamedic on Mar-03-14 5:01 PM (EST)
between hull shape and outfitting.

Just because you have seen RapidFires outfitted with low seats does not mean they have to be paddled that way; or even with a double stick. My husband pretty regularly paddles it with a bent shaft single even with the low seat.

To be fair when we see a boat or several of the same boat we do get a mental picture--erroneous or not-- of how that boat ought to be paddled.

I know it was a surprise to me to see Osprey outfitted with a sit on the bottom seat.

 
 
  I agree
  Posted by: rblturtle on Mar-04-14 6:51 AM (EST)
With different outfitting the same boat can suit different paddling position preferences.I sold my high seat Savage River Wee Lassie to a gentelmen who couldn't get comfortable with the high seat and I switched it to a Kayak seat for him. I was atempting to respond to the original poster who wanted a boat with a high seat. This would limit his choices to boats built that way unless he wanted to modify it. I think the prefered paddling position should be the first factor in chosing a solo boat. For me, it's a very different experience. Also ,for me, when I paddled a Placid Spitfire(a great boat),I could close my eyes and be in a kayak. the definition of a "canoe" or "kayak" can be fuzzy,but one could consider pack type canoes funtionally,open kayaks.I try to encourage newbes to explore all the different positions.
different strokes,Turtle
 
 
  Just to be clear...
  Posted by: mattg on Mar-04-14 11:03 AM (EST)
...I didn't intend to imply that I want a high seat. I always imagine that a sloped seat would be ideal for kneeling. Maybe fitting size 9.5 feet under makes it a high seat? I'm not sure what qualifies.
 
 
  "high" is relative
  Posted by: pblanc on Mar-04-14 12:06 PM (EST)
-- Last Updated: Mar-04-14 2:35 PM EST --

I think the use of the term "high seat" in the last few posts is relative to the very low synthetic pedestals of the type installed in many of the Placid Boat Works canoes, or a polyethylene foam seating pad like in a Hornbeck pack canoe.

The Placid pedestals are intended to place the paddler in a kayak-like seating position just a few inches (or less) up off the hull bottom:

http://www.placidboats.com/outfitting.html

Note that the so-called "high" Placid pedestal places the paddler's sit bones less than 3 inches above the hull bottom.

Most kneeling paddlers find that either a canted seat (with the front frame of the seat closer to the hull bottom than the rear frame), or a canted kneeling thwart is more comfortable than a level seat or thwart. If I am going to be kneeling exclusively I prefer a thwart canted up to 30 degrees off horizontal but many folks prefer less angle, and less is better if you are going to use the same seat for both kneeling and sitting.

Measuring the seat height above the hull bottom is a bit tricky because the vast majority of hulls have either an arched or V shaped bottom. I have size 11 feet. I find that 8 inches of clearance between the bottom of the front of the seat frame or thwart and the bottom of the hull at the centerline is usually enough for me, but if I regularly wore footwear with thick soles and prominent heels I would probably insist on more like 9 inches. Hulls with a deep V, rounded, or deeply arched bottom may require a higher seat to allow adequate heel clearance.

 
 
  Placid high seats
  Posted by: yknpdlr on Mar-04-14 4:34 PM (EST)
Yes, the term "high seat" is very relative. Placidboats offers 3 different bottom mounted molded seats, low, medium and "high". The medium and high will fit over the permanently mounted low seat. I have all three of those. But I wanted something higher for single blade paddling. Joe removed the glued-in low floor mounted seat for me, and installed the highest rail mounted seat he had, which is minimally higher than the "high" floor mounted seat. But it also has a forward pitch tilt, which is more optimum for racing. With that my back does not touch the backrest at all, which is fine with me. I do wish I had an even "higher" seat for even better maneuverability with a single blade. I am tempted to go back to see Joe with my request for a new boat with reinforcement to support a gunwale hung "high" seat.
 
 
  There is
  Posted by: windwalker on Mar-04-14 7:13 AM (EST)
a really nice Curtis Nomad in the classifieds. ;-) I know, shameless plug...

However, if you are close to Pa. you are welcome to come test paddle the Nomad as well as our Hemlcok Kestrel to get a feel for the two different sizes.

Mike
 
 
  Fitting a Canoe
  Posted by: CEWilson on Mar-04-14 12:36 PM (EST)
"Fitting" into a kneeling canoe should include the sitz bones comfortably on the seat and the knees comfortably spread into the chines. Folks with shorter legs need narrower boats, but seat height and kneepad thickness can be adjusted to improve fit. This can be overdone; a smallish paddler packed into a boat too wide to allow a vertical paddleshaft. Folk with longer thighs can raise the seat in an overly narrow boat to the pint their CG is too high for stability allowed with a relatively narrow knee stance. Either way, the feet need clear the seat pretty easily.

A kneeling seat placement high enough to clear booted feet can be too high for sitting paddlers. Footpegs help improve stability, but solo paddlers need to try their boats, test paddle them, at least when getting into the game.
 
 
  solo canoe thoughts
  Posted by: jessesouza on Mar-04-14 2:54 PM (EST)
I am not an expert, I am puny, just ask CE Wilson. My Placid Rapidfire is an amazing boat. I single blade with it on a sliding seat, there is enough room for me to kneel as well, I double paddle it too. This boat has handled rougher waters than I should have been in. It is stable but will turn easily with a slight lean. Think about a new one. Mine was "used" after one season in my rough rocky mountain area waters. It's a well built, tough boat...jesse
 

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