Your #1 source for kayaking and canoeing information.               FREE Newsletter!
my Profile
 





 
Advice, Suggestions and General Help New Topic Printer Friendly Version

  Did I get a bad deal?
  Posted by: jander88 on Feb-18-14 5:23 PM (EST)
   Category: unassigned 

Here is my situation... I bought a Current Designs Storm GT last weekend from a kayak and canoe shop. After getting it home and inside, and upon closer inspection, I found a "wavy" spot in the hull just below the cockpit. It isn't bad but is noticeable if you look and feel for it. I got past that with the understanding that long poly boats are susceptible to oil canning in that area, and that I could probably fix it. BUT when I was at the court house registering it today, I noticed on the manufacturers proof of origin paper that it was delivered to the store almost two years ago. I paid MSRP for it. My main question is: Is it common (and acceptable) to pay full price for a boat that has been sitting in the store since 2012? Maybe it's not a big deal, I honestly don' know.

 Great Products from the Buyers' Guide:

Shirts / Tops

Kayak Seats

Free Standing Boat Racks

Kayak Seats

Hoister

Table of Contents




Messages in this Topic

 

  good question...and a tricky answer
  Posted by: daggermat on Feb-18-14 5:28 PM (EST)
-- Last Updated: Feb-18-14 5:32 PM EST --

could you have gotten a better deal at another dealer? Is there another dealer? Do you like the boat? Do you like the dealer? Will you remember this lesson next time you buy a kayak?
I'd say if you have fun, use it regularly, have more fun, make good memories and anticipate good times, your return on investment will be just fine.
Never bought a new boat, though I've had 13 at one time on occasion, so I can't honestly answer your question. I know the local dealer does end of season sales, but their inventory is so huge I know not everything gets sold.
My favorite boats are the ones my kid got for free lol. Oh, to be young and talented.

 
 
  Others will disagree with me, but...
  Posted by: Guideboatguy on Feb-18-14 5:32 PM (EST)
... I don't think there's any reason to provide a discount on a boat that's been in the store for two years. There's nothing about the boat that is any different now than when it arrived. Further, except for cars and electronics, nearly all the other expensive items we buy could easily have been laying in the store since the previous year or more and we'd also never know or care. Would you demand a discount on the power saw you just bought, just because it was manufactured more than 12 months ago? Hardly - it's still a new saw and it's still the one you wanted. I'd apply the same reasoning to boats. That doesn't mean you couldn't try to coax them into giving you a deal on such a boat, but as you can see, they must have planned on selling it for full price because someone would eventually want it, and they were right ;)
 
 
  Today's MSRP...
  Posted by: Celia on Feb-18-14 5:56 PM (EST)
would be higher than the one from 2 yrs ago due to inflation. At the least you got a sale of sorts on that.

I'd just be attentive to how things like the hatch covers and perimeter lines loo. If the boat has been sitting indoors they should be fine, if it was outside you could see some dryness.
 
 
  That you paid MSRP tells me that
  Posted by: kayamedic on Feb-18-14 5:58 PM (EST)
the dealer has room and cash reserves to carry inventory.

I got a Swift Raven several years ago from a reputable dealer that said it wasn't moving and no one had interest. There was a forty percent discount. The dealer simply wanted it out.

That the hull was delivered in 2012 is not a big deal. In your area dealers may get inventory only a few times a year. And there may not be much demand for sea kayaks.

If you want to talk waiting, because of transport, it can take two years to get your canoe barged back out of the Arctic.
 
 
  maybe
  Posted by: Peter-CA on Feb-18-14 6:05 PM (EST)
Full retail on a boat a few years old, especially if that boat is still sold as is (so there is not a newer/better version) is not unusual.

If that wavy section impacts the usability of the boat, then that may be an issue that would justify bringing it back.

Overall, big discounts on boats are rare. The person who mentioned the 40% discount got a deal, as that would put the boat at or below what the dealer paid for it. There is not a lot of margins on these things. The margins are a little better on clothing and accessories, so discounts there are more common. But overall, sometimes it is amazing that dealers even stay in business.
 
 
  Some boats
  Posted by: rpg51 on Feb-18-14 7:19 PM (EST)
will move at 20% discounts in the fall. That is very common. That wave is something that I would want to be sure could be removed which it likely can. A dent or wave in the bottom is very common. I got one in one of my boats from leaving it sitting on the bottom in the garage for a few days. But it came right out with some applications of hot/boiling water and a towel laid over the area. It has never returned since I have been careful about storing it on its side or deck in slings at the bulkheads.
 
 
  I concur.
  Posted by: ADNelson on Feb-19-14 6:29 AM (EST)
I have had dents/ waves in both of the boats I got, but customer service and the owner's manual both said to let it sit in the sun for a few hours, and it would come out. On one it did, but on the other it required manually pushing out the dent after it had heated.

If that didn't work, I was supposed to try a heat gun, but to be extremely careful that didn't make the problem worse.
 
 
  two years old
  Posted by: jeffro on Feb-18-14 7:42 PM (EST)
Getting the boat for a "new" price isn't so much an issue unless it gets stolen and you report the loss to your insurance agency. They'll devaluate it your brand new boat down two years. (this happened to me when some AH stole my new three year old Hobie Catamaran) Fortunately, the dealership owner (Mr. Tom Hatch) came to my aid to explain the situation. Just saying.... By the way, summer heat may melt your boat (oil can) if it is not laying on the gunwhales or upside down. I don't recommend transporting or storing plastic on cradles/saddles. And it happens fast.
 
 
  I agree with others
  Posted by: puffingin on Feb-19-14 9:29 AM (EST)
Another point, at least the engine is in good shape or, at least. in as good condition as you thought it was when you bought it. ;)
 
 
  Loyalty Perk
  Posted by: Clint-in-KY on Feb-19-14 9:55 AM (EST)
I think I would use the situation to my advantage. I would go back to the dealer, and tell him/her that you like the boat but did not realize that it was two years old. I would then ask for some compensation in the form of a store credit for future purchases. While I am retired from retail, I do not know what the mark-up is on the boats, but I will bet a lot that the mark-up on the accessories is MUCH higher, making a store credit on those things you will need actually a better deal.
 
 
  Thank you, all
  Posted by: jander88 on Feb-19-14 9:48 AM (EST)
There have been some very good points made here. It seems like the general answer is that I shouldn't be worried about the boat not being brand new. After reading everyone's comments, I would have to agree. Nothing on the boat has changed since 2012 and I feel confident I can take the slight deformity out of the hull. I can't wait to get her out on the water!
 
 
  Not acceptable.
  Posted by: magooch on Feb-19-14 10:05 AM (EST)
If you bought the boat as a new boat and not as an "as is" left over, I think you got hosed. A new boat should be as close to perfect as is possible, but it is up to you to check it out very carefully, before you make the deal. I don't care if the wavy bottom is fixable, that alone should have brought a substantial discount. I personally would never buy a boat that has a serious defect. A warped bottom is a serious defect; it says something about how the boat has been cared for and that you had better do some further checking. Be especially sure that the keel line is straight. Polyethylene boats can get warped from end to end and that is a big problem.

I would take the boat back to the dealer and see if he was aware of the warped bottom and what he was prepared to do about it. Good luck.

I have never paid MSRP for any new boat, but there are a lot of competitive dealers in my area.
 
 
  Sometimes the excitement.
  Posted by: Bob_d on Feb-20-14 2:26 AM (EST)
....of a new purchase can blind us to imperfections until we get a chance to have a good look at the item at our leisure.
The dealer probably knew full well of the problem you describe, after all they had the boat for two years.
I think it's unscrupulous of them not to have pointed out the defect. If they had, you could have come to an amicable arrangement/agreement.
I'd go back and mention the defect. If they don't do anything about it, accept it as a lesson, get on with enjoying the boat and don't give them your custom in the future.
 
 
  Dealer may not know of a minor defect
  Posted by: Guideboatguy on Feb-20-14 8:30 AM (EST)
-- Last Updated: Feb-20-14 8:39 AM EST --

I've seen how plastic kayaks are brought to our local springtime paddle-sports show by the manufacturers. The boats are stacked in the backs of big trucks like huge loads of dead fish. Who believes a dealer who's handling boats in quantity takes the time to scrutinize each one in the same way the individual buyer might do? Not me. To the guys in the shop, boats are treated as "so much stuff", that must be moved around, displayed, inventoried - it's a "job", that is, routine work, to the employees there. I'd be amazed if anyone looks at the boats so carefully as to regularly detect minor flaws.

A person may get a discount after pointing out such a flaw, but don't bet on the idea that the dealer knew about it before you did.

 
 
  I think you did fine...
  Posted by: jswr450 on Feb-19-14 10:32 PM (EST)
-- Last Updated: Feb-19-14 10:34 PM EST --

As others have said it's not at all uncommon for merchandise to sit on the shelf for a while and be sold at full retail. It seems like if no one asks or knows then no one cares. Cars are a little different because every year most models receive a bunch of upgrades.

The people I work for believe that things should be worth more after they've been sitting because they've had to pay to store them and have had the money tied up. I don't agree with that, but selling a new Kayak at a discount because they ordered it and no one wanted it for a while seems a little rough, especially for a well known model like you bought.

The retailer you bought it from is probably not making as much as you think on the transaction, and even at full price you are not making them rich in any way. If they lose money they are out of business.

The way to make sure you got a good deal is to use it a lot.

If it has a manufacturing defect then that's on Current Designs, not the retailer, and I'm sure they'll make it right.

 
 
  You got hosed!!!
  Posted by: natekimh on Feb-19-14 10:51 PM (EST)
-- Last Updated: Feb-19-14 10:53 PM EST --

Mountainman outdoors old forge ny were selling 2012 Storm gt's at 985$ 3 weeks ago. you can still get one for 1085$ Msrp was near 1500$.. A boat that is 2 years old is old stock and you should be given a discount...in my opinion...


http://www.mountainmanoutdoors.com/touring-kayaks-inventory.html

 
 
  But, is Mountainman Outdoors' boat
  Posted by: Yanoer on Feb-19-14 11:59 PM (EST)
in any better condition? The only way to be sure is to check it out in person. Have you verified that their boats are in better condition than the OP's?

It's extremely common for plastic boats to have dents in the bottom from rack display.

Most boats transported hull down on cradles develop dents where contacting the cradles, unless the cradles are located under the bulkheads.
 
 
  Screwed, IMO
  Posted by: bmach1 on Feb-20-14 2:10 AM (EST)
There is no way I would pay MSRP on a new yak even for this year, let alone a 2 year old one. Who here would pay MSRP on a 2014 yak? Not me!! So he paid MSRP on a 2 year old yak? Yep in my mind you got screwed. I have never paid MSRP on any of my kayaking gear and never will. I also do not pay MSRP for my cycling gear either. Always, always ask for a better price than they are asking for. If they come down great, if not and you really want they, hey you tried.
 
 
  And meanwhile...
  Posted by: Guideboatguy on Feb-20-14 8:16 AM (EST)
-- Last Updated: Feb-20-14 8:17 AM EST --

... paddling shops all across the country continue to disappear because the profit margin on boats is so much smaller than average buyers believe. Consider yourself fortunate to live near a paddle shop in a robust market, a shop that can afford to offer you a discount on a new boat in hopes of making you a happy customer that will continue to patronize them and likely buy additional, more-profitable items.

It always amazes me how many people here think the individual economic situations of all paddle shops are the same. There could be a dozen reasons why one shop can fully expect to sell some leftover boats for full price, while another shop can't hope to unload them at all without slashing the price, while still another is in a the lucky position to be able to slash the price to gain certain indirect benefits.

 
 
  And Iowa is not Old Forge NY
  Posted by: kayamedic on Feb-20-14 7:39 AM (EST)
-- Last Updated: Feb-20-14 8:22 AM EST --

doubt there is competition in Iowa.

Total agreement with GBG

 
 
  shipping costs???? nm
  Posted by: daggermat on Feb-20-14 7:52 AM (EST)
 
 
  Yes, I should have mentioned
  Posted by: jander88 on Feb-20-14 8:58 AM (EST)
that I live in Iowa. I'm sure there is very little competition between shops as far as touring boats go. To my knowledge, there's only one shop that specializes in sea kayaks in the whole state, the vast majority of boats sold around here are recreational. I've decided I'll contact the retailer and let him know about the wavy area in the hull while the boat is still new to me. That way, if the kayaks performance is affected by that, or a yet to be noticed deformity, I will at least have something to fall back on. The keel line appears to be straight, and besides the slight wave in the hull, the boat appears to be in ship shape.
 
 
  What surprises me.
  Posted by: magooch on Feb-20-14 9:40 AM (EST)
How absolutely demure some folks are when it comes to buying. There is no excuse for any product, let alone kayaks to be in less than perfect condition when sold as new. New means new--not with acceptable amounts of wear and tear. Any dealer should know how to take care of his merchandise and train his employees to do so.

What some here have said is true that some stores are pretty lax about how they treat their stuff; I've mostly noticed this about big box sporting goods stores as opposed to genuine kayak and canoe shops. My question is, why would anyone accept a scratched up dented boat when I assume the same person probably wouldn't accept that when buying a new car?

Buying a new boat and the excitement of getting it on the water can blind you to a lot of details that later will cause you regret. But we live and learn and I've learned something each time I've bought anything of value.
 
 
  New boat vs new car.
  Posted by: Yanoer on Feb-20-14 1:17 PM (EST)
Most paddlers expect to get scratches on their boat the first time they use it.

Most car drivers don't expect to get scratches on the new car the first time they drive it.

 
 
  Built-in imperfections can be normal too
  Posted by: Guideboatguy on Feb-20-14 2:03 PM (EST)
-- Last Updated: Feb-20-14 2:06 PM EST --

Though more common with plastic boats, lots of composite boats have minor deviations from the design shape as well. One common defect is at the seams of float tanks (common for canoes). My guide-boat has a minor bit of waviness at the two locations where a small wood block is glassed in to the floor (each block is an anchor point for floorboards/footbraces). My Merlin II has a deformity near the keel line along the last roughly 1.3 feet of the boat's length at the stern (as do all the boats made from the same mold). In talking about such things in the past, people have pointed out that in the days of wooden boats, similar imperfections must have been common as well, even from reputable builders (the ancient Old Town wood/canvas rowboat our family had when I was a kid would have been a suitable example of this). There comes a point when a person says "so what" about such things, as long as the only way to perceive their presence is visually and not by the boat's handling character. From a practical perspective, such things wouldn't be viewed as making the boat "less than perfect". It's a boat, not a religious artifact.

 
 
  Not a political argument here
  Posted by: natekimh on Feb-20-14 7:50 PM (EST)
-- Last Updated: Feb-20-14 7:55 PM EST --

As stated in my earlier post.... my thoughts are my own opinions... I am to not trying to single-handedly close every Boat shop across North America.. AND, if it's a bad thing to believe in getting a good deal and not to pay full price on a 1500$ dollar purchase plus tax...LOCK ME UP RIGHT NOW!! ANd to Yanoer... Yes i have seen the boat,and is in NEW condition. I was just there... Also mountain man does provide shipping,BTW. I just wanted to show that there was a lower price on a boat available. Didn't mean to offend anyone.

 
 
  For every thing I've purchased
  Posted by: Harry0244 on Feb-21-14 9:35 AM (EST)
I have found people who claim to have got a better price, and people who say they paid more. I did not pay msrp for my Storm, but it was a well used demo, and I use it rough. It serves me well on large lakes (including Superior) large rivers and even some smaller lakes. The carrying capacity is great for camping, and it has a good cruise speed. I do have a shorter boat for small rivers and streams.

Don't let the naysayer give you buyers remorse, but mention the problem next time you are at the shop, and they may give you a discount on accessories that have a higher mark up than boats.

It is just two weeks to Canoecopia, the first paddle sport event for my year. :)

 
 
  You didn't get the best deal
  Posted by: Glenn_MacGrady on Feb-22-14 4:42 PM (EST)
You could have done three things to get a better price:

1. Don't ever pay retail price for any new canoe or kayak bought from a retailer. There will eventually be a sale or discount day, or a "blem" available, or you can simply negotiate with the retailer for a lower price. Many of my canoes and kayaks have been custom made, and even some of those prices were negotiated.

2. Don't pay as much for old stock as new stock. The dealer probably paid less for the old stock and is probably more anxious to move it out of inventory. So figure out from the boats ID# when it was made and make a reasonable offer that is less than the current boat price.

3. Inspect the boat thoroughly and ask for a discount for any defect that is significant but that you can live with.

YOU have to be an informed and smart shopper to get the best deal.
 
 
  Enjoy the boat
  Posted by: shiraz627 on Feb-22-14 5:07 PM (EST)
Let this be a learning experience. My $3K Swift even came with some imperfections.
 
 
  You have a good boat. As you progress
  Posted by: string on Feb-22-14 10:39 PM (EST)
through this journey, you will ask yourself that question many times, but when you start using it, if you like it, your cost question will be gone.
 
 
  You have to register kayaks in Iowa?
  Posted by: yakfisher on Mar-11-14 4:07 PM (EST)
How much does that cost you?
 
 
  $13 for 3 years
  Posted by: bzeka on Mar-11-14 5:18 PM (EST)
I only have canoes but anything over 13ft has to be registered.
 
 
  I would be broke if I lived there
  Posted by: Yakfisher on Mar-14-14 3:41 AM (EST)
with all the canoes and kayaks I have.
 
 
  Don't fret the price.
  Posted by: Cliffjrs on Mar-12-14 3:31 PM (EST)
If you use it, then it is a good deal. If you don't, then it isn't. Spread that over 10 years plus and it really doesn't matter what the price is.
 

Google
 
Web Paddling.net


Follow us on:
Free Newsletter | About Us | Site Map | Advertising Info | Contact Us

©2014 Paddling.net Inc.
Sweepstakes Shirt Sale