I'm interested in trying a light carbon paddle, and Zaveral appears to be a common recommendation here, at least for bent shafts. However, given that I paddle lazy bony rivers at a leisurely pace, don't switch paddling sides and frequently kneel, I thought a straight shaft may be more useful to me. Not sure if small degree bents are worth the bother.
The (newer) straight Zaverals aren't liked nearly as much as the bents, though. As I understand it, the blade isn't centered on the shaft and flush with it on one but not the other side. I assume they simply aren't designed as straights.
Any recommendation on a straight carbon fiber paddle as good as Zaveral? Or maybe my beginning skills would just eat up an expensive paddle on the river and I should stick with my wooden straight.
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|Messages in this Topic|
If you're fit enough to paddle carbon...|
Posted by: bigspencer on Feb-04-14 2:51 PM (EST)
Carbon is not inherently stiff. If one |
Posted by: ezwater on Feb-04-14 11:10 PM (EST)
orders from an intelligent maker like Mitchell, one can get very nice flexibility, and longevity. My carbon shaft Mitchell is about 18 years old. I also have a Clinch River paddle with a carbon/Kevlar shaft that is reasonably flexible.
what would be your estimation of the|
Posted by: bigspencer on Feb-05-14 5:43 AM (EST)
Not sure what you need to know, but |
Posted by: ezwater on Feb-05-14 5:57 PM (EST)
ww paddles reinforced only with Kevlar were a disaster, because Kevlar has crappy compression strength. Kevlar should be used mainly where strength in tension is important. Though brittle, carbon can supply strength in tension where needed in a paddle, and provides great strength in compression as well. I'm not sure why anyone chose to include Kevlar in carbon/Kevlar paddle shafts, because every bit of Kevlar subtracts from compresssion stength on the concave side of a stressed shaft.
some to consider|
Posted by: pblanc on Feb-04-14 4:08 PM (EST)
I never held a ZRE paddle,|
Posted by: melenas on Feb-04-14 9:21 PM (EST)
but I remember unfavorable comments regarding the offset blade (flush on one side, indented on the other). The offset blade must have to do with how they manufacture the bents, maybe, but it's not by design. At that price point, I was hoping for something without that oddity, which seemed to at least irritate several members.
I made a 5 degree bent shaft |
Posted by: ezwater on Feb-04-14 11:17 PM (EST)
with an ash shaft that is a bit superior to my Mitchell slalom paddle for straight-ahead cruising. But it is much heavier than the Mitchell, and lacks the Mitchell's neutral handling for compound maneuvering strokes.
I hate the T-grip on the Wenonah's.|
Posted by: Yanoer on Feb-05-14 12:02 AM (EST)
Especially when wearing gloves - it catches in the web of the thumb.
Posted by: mcimes on Feb-05-14 9:14 AM (EST)
I now use two ZRE's for everything|
Posted by: Glenn_MacGrady on Feb-05-14 9:15 AM (EST)
Posted by: melenas on Feb-05-14 1:35 PM (EST)
Glenn, I saw in an earlier post that you found the flex shaft too flexy in your straight shaft when you first got it. What do you think now?
Not too flexy|
Posted by: Glenn_MacGrady on Feb-05-14 2:02 PM (EST)
Perhaps I voiced concern before I got the straight shaft that it might be too flexy at the relatively long 57" length. (The shaft is long because the blade is ZRE's relatively bottom heavy tulip shape, or whatever they call it.)
Glenn, for kneeling, a five degree |
Posted by: ezwater on Feb-06-14 12:54 AM (EST)
bent shaft angle is best for forward paddling.
Composite Straight Shaft Paddle|
Posted by: clydehedlund on Feb-06-14 5:18 AM (EST)
My feeling is|
Posted by: rpg51 on Feb-06-14 6:40 AM (EST)
that if you are paddling bony rivers all the time and at a quite pace you probably have little need for a carbon paddle and in all probability you will beat the s**t out of it in short order anyway. I use a Zav bent shat all the time but the environment you describe is one situation when I would leave my Zav in the car. I do not baby my Zav either. I use it regularly on trips and in whitewater. But slow and bony rivers? Nope.
My feeling is pretty much the same|
Posted by: pblanc on Feb-06-14 10:45 AM (EST)
but I generally try to avoid telling people they really don't want what they want.
I had similar doubts|
Posted by: melenas on Feb-06-14 12:49 PM (EST)
However, I thought light weight is nice no matter what. I like to go down the river for 2-3 days and do have to paddle through some longer stretches of pools. But, I'll admit that I may encounter submerged rocks all of a sudden.
During most of its life, my Mitchell has|
Posted by: ezwater on Feb-06-14 2:43 PM (EST)
been used on rivers that are often shallow and rocky. Same for my similar Clinch River. Both have carbon shafts. The Mitchell's blade is glass faced, the Clinch River has carbon facing. The Mitchell is well over 15 years old and is not in need of any maintenance, though one can see that it has been used. The Clinch River has the carbon fibers worn off the bottom part of one side of the blade.
No longer made or available.|
Posted by: Yanoer on Feb-06-14 10:08 AM (EST)
Posted by: clydehedlund on Feb-06-14 3:59 PM (EST)
You mean no one makes composite canoe paddles with identical and symetrical front and back power faces anymore? That's too bad, for the convenience of being able to use either the front or back of the blade equally sure saves a lot of time and effort doing various maneuvers where the canoe responds almost instantly. Certainly, maybe, those freestyle paddlers might use them?
Posted by: bigspencer on Feb-06-14 4:40 PM (EST)
....Hope it's just a temporary lull, butttt....things are really getting consolidated in the paddling world.
Meaning nobody makes Pat Moore Ques.|
Posted by: Yanoer on Feb-06-14 5:49 PM (EST)
Sure...I have one |
Posted by: canoeist11 on Feb-06-14 5:54 PM (EST)
and I use it primarily for FreeStyle. I also am always on the lookout for another for a price that my meager budget allows. Pat Moore had a tough time making much of a profit for those fantastic one-piece paddles. Most paddlers are not willing to spend $400 plus for a paddle, so the limited paddle market tends to go where the demand and the dollar intersect.
There are a couple|
Posted by: pblanc on Feb-06-14 5:57 PM (EST)
which I mentioned earlier in this thread, to wit:
Those are the same paddle.|
Posted by: Yanoer on Feb-06-14 6:58 PM (EST)
Grey Owl Raven|
Posted by: pblanc on Feb-07-14 8:34 AM (EST)
The webpage the second link directs to has (in addition to carbon Wenonah paddles) a Grey Owl Raven paddle.
They used to have a carbon straight |
Posted by: Yanoer on Feb-07-14 12:40 PM (EST)
shaft identical to Wenonah's.
Carbon paddles can be ok going down|
Posted by: Yanoer on Feb-06-14 1:54 PM (EST)
bony rivers. I use carbon ZRE paddles pretty much 100% of the time on the central IL bony rivers & streams. The edge will get nicked & scratched when contacting rocks, but won't likely break unless it gets wedged or is used like a crow bar. I haven't severely damaged a ZRE going downstream, but I don't do whitewater.
Disagree about low degree bent; cue|
Posted by: Glenn_MacGrady on Feb-06-14 7:34 PM (EST)
My disagreement in this post has nothing to do with measurements or bio-mechanics, which I will accept if data are available, but simply with my own personal preferences paddling on my knees with many, many bent shaft paddles since 1982.
It's mostly personal preference|
Posted by: pblanc on Feb-07-14 2:47 PM (EST)
The best thing about more angle for |
Posted by: ezwater on Feb-07-14 5:41 PM (EST)
kneelers is it helps keep them from falling forward on their faces at the catch.
Pblanc, could you clarify|
Posted by: Glenn_MacGrady on Feb-07-14 7:10 PM (EST)
Nice overall summary, but this one sentence confuses me:
I'm not sure I can explain well|
Posted by: pblanc on Feb-07-14 9:58 PM (EST)
I find that with a straight shaft paddle I need to lift the blade higher at the end of the recovery and start of the plant than with a straight shaft paddle. Of course, a big part of this is because my bent shaft paddles are typically 4" shorter on average than my straights.
I think I understand|
Posted by: Glenn_MacGrady on Feb-07-14 10:27 PM (EST)
When you say the top arm is in a "better position to pull", you don't mean you are pulling the paddle with your grip arm. You mean you're grip arm is in a better (extended) position when you pull on the paddle with your shaft arm (plus torso).
There's a push-down component |
Posted by: ezwater on Feb-08-14 12:20 AM (EST)
with slalom racers also. And there are things going on with the shoulder girdle moving over the top of the torso.
Yes Glenn and Gary|
Posted by: pblanc on Feb-08-14 2:47 PM (EST)
Amen...You nailed it...|
Posted by: clydehedlund on Feb-08-14 11:56 PM (EST)
For as my canoe guru, Patrick Moore, would remind me many many years ago (back in the days of long sleeve silk shirts): "the purpose of the top arm is to move the bottom arm forward."
Seems neither redrock nor Arimond |
Posted by: ezwater on Feb-09-14 4:26 PM (EST)
deals with paddling while kneeling. I can apply most of what Arimond says to kneeling with a straight, or straigter, paddle shaft. I wonder if having a very long torso (me) affects optimum paddle shaft angle when kneeling. Five degrees is fine for forward stroking, but I can't see going higher than that. A more compact paddler might be more efficient, kneeling, with a 7 degree, or a bit higher.
Lutra from Curtis Canoe (then)|
Posted by: coronaboy on Feb-09-14 4:58 PM (EST)
I have a much sought after Lutra with a 5 degree bend that an amazing person(Tony Fig) sold to me to compliment the Sawyer Autumn Mist that I was paddling with his wife and him at the time. It's a great paddle but it has a HUGE blade. I had Zaveral make me a paddle with the same 5 degree bend with one of his widest blades available(a much smaller blade area than the Lutra). I have loaned this paddle to others on group paddles for short times and have noticed both kneelers and sitters really LIKE the 5 degree bend as well as the exteme LIGHT WEIGHT! You can't go wrong with Zav.... You just have to figure out what you want .....
Its funny - |
Posted by: rpg51 on Feb-09-14 8:40 PM (EST)
you guys are all over the light and bent graphite craze (I've been there too and I do love my ZRE) and here I am having a wood canvas tripping canoe built and thinking about ordering a couple of beaver tail paddles from Shaw and Tenney. Funny how our interests evolve. Seems I'm going backwards.
Nothing wrong with going back to |
Posted by: ezwater on Feb-10-14 12:01 AM (EST)
"Canadian" paddling style and corresponding equipment. If we're not trying to cover water like marathon paddlers, I wonder whether the Canadian style isn't very relaxing and efficient.
That's Why I Like Dual Face Paddles|
Posted by: clydehedlund on Feb-10-14 1:29 PM (EST)
Where you can use the front face exactly like the back power face, especially when doing wet recoveries.
All the Way Back to ZRE Pizza Paddle |
Posted by: clydehedlund on Feb-10-14 12:10 AM (EST)
Blades? Remember all carbon Barton paddles and Black Barts? Should be able to find used ones around? Sold the 8 inch wide Black Bart, but still got the ball cap and t-shirt. Any offers? Sorry, won't part with them yet.
T&Ss are a pretty dense 1piece rpg51|
Posted by: bigspencer on Feb-12-14 12:05 AM (EST)
.....for a wood paddle....fwiw.
By dense - you mean|
Posted by: rpg51 on Feb-12-14 7:24 AM (EST)
heavy? Do you know other builders of very traditional wood paddles?
Posted by: yknpdlr on Feb-12-14 8:11 AM (EST)
Caleb Davis has been making handcrafted wood paddles for more than 20 years. Typically finished with a fine knife edge, they slice effortlessly through the water. Caleb lives in the town of Long Lake, NY.
Posted by: clydehedlund on Feb-12-14 3:12 PM (EST)
SUP paddle with "two power faces?" That's wonderful, thanks for the link.
No, not really weight(although a little)|
Posted by: bigspencer on Feb-13-14 12:56 PM (EST)
I see what you are saying -|
Posted by: rpg51 on Feb-13-14 6:29 PM (EST)
I love my ZRE for lightness when paddling long hours - but I also like the stiff and beefy S&T traditional paddles. Hard to explain. A friend has a Grey Owl and it is a very nice paddle but not really a traditional paddle.
Which Gray Owl does your friend have|
Posted by: Yanoer on Feb-13-14 7:15 PM (EST)
that's not really a traditional paddle?
Not sure -|
Posted by: rpg51 on Feb-13-14 7:32 PM (EST)
Ah, rugged like my walnut beavertail.|
Posted by: Yanoer on Feb-13-14 11:14 PM (EST)
It's rugged, but heavy.
THANK YOU Guys !!! |
Posted by: onnopaddle on Feb-19-14 5:06 AM (EST)
For real world info to study and learn from.