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kayak choice assistance please
Posted by: cicadidae on Jan-28-14 5:47 PM (EST) Category: unassigned
I am debating between two kayaks: Emotion Bliss and Dagger Zydeco.
I have joined a paddling club and want to get a better kayak than the aruba 8 I have been playing with recently. My experience prior to moving here has been in a Perception Swifty. The members in this club suggest that I purchase a kayak longer than 12' so that I can keep up with them on longer trips. In reviewing the longer kayaks, I find that they are generally heavier. To be honest, I was leaning towards the Necky Vector SOT 14 but after playing around with a 50lb bag of dog food, have decided to go as light as possible as my back is not in super good shape.
Both the Zydeco and Bliss have fairly good ratings but the Bliss is noted to give a bit more speed because of it's shape. It is built for the smaller paddler. I am 5' tall and I weigh 155. By the time I get the kayak, this number will be closer to 145. I want to play with the "big dogs" on their day long excursions and I have a certain amount of pride and don't want to be the slowest person on the lake either.
I think a kayak that is as light and small as possible yet fast (an oxymoron I know) is what I need. I need to be able to load and unload on my own too.
I was also looking at the Ellie Sound and straight but there are lots and lots of people out there who are warning me that Pelican is not doing good things with these.
If you were me and you wanted to be as fast as possible yet still hang with the bird watchers sometimes, what would you pick?
Thanks in advance!!
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- kayak choice assistance please - cicadidae - Jan-28-14 5:47 PM
Posted by: gnatcatcher on Jan-28-14 6:50 PM (EST)
Sorry to say, you won't play with the big dogs with either of these boats. If your club advises to go longer than 12 feet, 10 feet isn't gonna cut it. I'd listen to them, or you'll be paddling alone.
It would be helpful to know your budget and where you'll be paddling.
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One model to consider|
Posted by: Guideboatguy on Jan-28-14 6:52 PM (EST)
Willowleaf is right. And though I'm no kayaker, I see the differences in various styles of kayaks all the time. One model that I can definitely recommend as a big step up compared to any in your list is the Necky Manitou 13, which is a boat that's at the lower end of the "touring" category. One could argue that you should even consider 14 feet as a minimum target length, but I know the Manitou 13 can easily keep up with any "normal" group of paddlers, and it will be noticeably more efficient (maintain a decent cruising speed with less effort) than any of the ones you mentioned. However, the price for a new one will be noticeably higher too.
Check the specs and you'll see that the Manitou 13 is noticeably narrower than the boats you mentioned, and that's where part of the extra efficiency comes from. Up the length to 14 feet and you can get a forward hatch too. However, there should be quite a few boats which are extremely similar to the Manitou 13 and 14, so mainly I present this as an example of the category of boat which will suit your stated goals better than the ones you've considered.
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Why not set the pace?|
Posted by: magooch on Jan-28-14 7:02 PM (EST)
Get a 15'-8" Novus Composites Kayaka and you will not only be able to keep up, you will probably have to put the brakes on to keep from running away from the mob. They've got a brand new one on sale right now for $1199. nckayaks.com
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Posted by: cicadidae on Jan-28-14 7:22 PM (EST)
what is your take on the Elie Strait 140?
btw I appreciate your comments. I will stop looking at the bliss and zydeco.
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Elie Strait comments|
Posted by: willowleaf on Jan-29-14 9:48 AM (EST)
-- Last Updated: Jan-29-14 10:01 AM EST --
Unfortunately I don't have any more than a few minutes seat time in the Elie Strait, from a quick test at a dealer's on-the-water open house, but I had been intrigued by that model when it first came out with very good reviews. It is a well behaved kayak, was my impression, with a very comfortable cockpit and nice forward glide. I was impressed with the outfitting -- it has the look and feel of a more costly boat. I do understand there have been some complaints about the durability and customer service, but that is often true with other models and makes. I think it is a decent boat, but for the same price range I still prefer my Easky 15LV. Other kayaks in that same mid-price and mid-size range are the aforementioned Manitou, the Perception Carolina and the Wilderness Systems Tsunami (in your case it would be the 120 or 140 models). All around $1000, plus or minus. Yes, the Conduit is a great value for almost half that.
Somebody else mentioned skin-on-frames -- I am a big fan of those having owned 6 of them over the years. Some areas of the country you can take a class to build your own -- since people do build them they sometimes turn up used. I bought a used one that was 18' long for $800 and it only weighs 31 lbs, which is quite nice for transport. A good intro to what they are all about is the fun blog of Brian Schulz, who designs and builds them out in Oregon:
This is his famous F-1 design which you could build in one of his classes for $1400. 14' long and under 30 lbs. In one of these everybody else in the club would be struggling to keep up with you:
Also, Tom Yost's site where you can see photos of kayaks that people have built using his free designs:
These are kind of off the track of what we started talking about, but both are enjoyable sites that provide some added insight to the world of kayaks.
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perception sport conduit|
Posted by: cicadidae on Jan-28-14 7:25 PM (EST)
Thats an awesome boat and the price is not a killer either. I can do that.
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Posted by: Abz on Jan-28-14 8:14 PM (EST)
If you buy a Necky Manitou, spend an extra $100 and buy the 14. I bought the 13 first and love it. I added a 14 later for a front bulkhead for ease of self rescue in bigger waters.
Many will recommend higher end boats, but I have paddled my Manitous for several years and I can maintain the pace of almost everyone I've paddled with.
Would I love a high-end 22" wide composite boat? Of course. Still you can find Manitous on Craigslist in great shape for $600-700.
When I win the lottery, I'll buy a $4000 kayak.
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weigth specs are often wrong|
Posted by: Peter-CA on Jan-28-14 8:15 PM (EST)
Weight specs, as posted, are often wrong. Some manufacturers do and list weights without hatch covers, outfitting, etc. I would go and check boats out in a shop and pick them up to check weight. Also get butt time in the boats paddling them, as not all boats are comfortable to all people.
One way to get lighter is change materials. Rotomolded plastic is what you currently use, and it is the heaviest. Next lightest would be thermoformed plastic. Then composites. As you go lighter, unfortunately, prices go up.
I believe Elie is a thermoformed boat, so should be lighter. But I have also heard they use a thicker plastic, so in the end there is no weight benefit.
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I'd start with ways to haul the boat |
Posted by: Celia on Jan-28-14 10:40 PM (EST)
As has been said above, neither of the boats you are talking about are serious steps up in terms of speed.
Nor should you be using your back to haul your boat, unless you are completely without a choice.
So you need to look at how you are moving the boat around, and ways to make that easier physically. That will give you more head room on the length of boat you can get.
So between car and water, you need a cart. Basic ones can be gotten for as low as $30. For loading on/off the car, you need to find ways to slide the boat up rather than lifting. This can be anything from a large towel spread out to protect the paint job to fancy stuff like the Amagansett Roller Loader and a third party system.
I don't know what rack setup you have right now so it is hard to tell what would work. But the right tools will allow you to focus on the boat you want to paddle rather than the one you can dead lift.
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Lots of potential answers|
Posted by: bartc on Jan-29-14 8:36 AM (EST)
Just how fast do they think they paddle?
I find that I can easily keep pace with 14-16' boats my companions paddle, but I'm in a 9.5' Emotion Glide! The difference is in the paddler up to 4 mph or so, which is the speed I'm learning most people seem to do.
Of course, the longer skinnier boats can be paddled much faster - they're more efficient. Do they really use them that way, though? I'd question that.
So many other factors seem to be working here: waterline, length, width, hull shape, wind resistance, etc.
As to lighter, if you really want light, look at skin on frame kayaks. Can't get lighter than that, and they're strong too, and often fast. Not so easy to get these on the used market and they aren't cheaper, I've found. But they are certainly lighter.
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The manitou 13|
Posted by: cicadidae on Jan-29-14 11:17 AM (EST)
I might be able to get a manitou 13 for $500 which I think is an awesome deal.
I don't have a carrier yet but I can stop at dicks and pick one up.
My take is that the ladies in this club want to go bird watching and the guys want to do longer stretches of flatwater. I want to do everything I can. I am totally done with winter and ready for spring!
I want to know what you think of the elie strait 140. If I cannot get the manitou, I might be able to get my hands on one fairly cheap. I like the looks and some of the reviews.
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"Try before you buy" and beginners|
Posted by: Guideboatguy on Jan-29-14 1:45 PM (EST)
-- Last Updated: Jan-29-14 2:29 PM EST --
I'm of the opinion that if a person doesn't have loads of experience, demo paddles are of little value except in figuring out if the person fits in the boat reasonably well. From my own experience when much more of a beginner, the true capabilities of any boat were way beyond my comprehension anyway, let alone my ability to take advantage of them. I think a lot of experienced paddlers truly have forgotten what it's like to not know much.
My advice to any beginner or semi-beginner, as is the case here, is to get a boat that is generally recognized as a good choice for their particular goals, and then as long as the person fits it, they can GRADUALLY figure out whether it's as good a choice as they hoped. I say "gradually" because there is no other way. Even the part about how well they fit the boat can't be totally figured out in a brief test paddle, and sitting in the boat on dry land is a pretty-good second option, especially for a person who has at least some paddling experience.
Taking this to a related idea, the OP is considering a boat that's very nicely priced right now. One has to weigh that against the likelihood of finding a similar deal later on when spring arrives, AND the likelihood that there will be any chance of test paddling that boat. Usually with used boats, there's no good way to arrange a test paddle anyway, since the boat is in the seller's garage and they are anxious to send it off with the first person who shows up with cash in hand. Most sellers do NOT want to waste their own time helping a potential buyer with all their questions and doubts.
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I agree |
Posted by: adbass on Jan-29-14 2:01 PM (EST)
with GuideboatGuy, better to start paddling with a reasonable and available boat than wait for a theoretically 'better', unavailable one. (Within limits of course)
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Couple of things|
Posted by: dc9mm on Jan-29-14 2:36 PM (EST)
What do your fellow paddlers paddle?
Plastic or fiberglass?
Whats your budget?
I would get at least a 14 foot kayak.
Just 2 months ago sold my used 14 foot tsunami 140 for $650 on craigslist so look there too.
Get a proper loading device for kayak to car will make a 55 pound kayak easy to load. Some use a roller from the back of car others lift from the side. Look around. Malone has a lower cost loader onto there jbars. I uses a roller with v-saddles from a place near me oak orchard kayak makes and sells .
Oh Dicks sporting goods conduit 13 doesn't have deck lines just bungee cord. Deck lines are really needed for safety, they could be added if you want. At least it has 2 sealed hatches for floatation.Still a wide kayak at 26 inches. Try to stick to 24 inch and smaller for width for speed.
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answers to your questions|
Posted by: cicadidae on Jan-29-14 6:54 PM (EST)
My fellow paddlers... well in the first meeting it appeared that several of the guys were in extremely long kayaks (type unknown). Another guy who seemed to try to be most knowledgeable and eager to jump in and try anything..paddles a swifty. The ladies appear to be also in the swifty style boats with the exception of one who will be paddling a SOT 10' something.
I was all excited about a necky vector 14 until I read that these guys are going out in the dead of night. Getting wet is ok but not at night when I am already sorta cold. But the boat seemed nice.
My budget is odd. If I grab that necky manitou now, I will have barely the $550 the seller wants. If I wait a bit longer I could possibly save up to $800 but I would rather not wait.
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14 - 15' Kayaks|
Posted by: AndrewBolton on Jan-29-14 7:48 PM (EST)
- Tsunami 14x
- Dagger alchemy
- Perception Carolina
- Venture Easky 15
- Necky Manitou 14
- Venture Islay 14
Are all excellent choices.
I would recommend starting in the 14-15' class of quality boats with full decklines and front & back watertight hatches. This class of boat will perform well in most any inland or shoreline situation and unlike the shorter, slower and less seaworthy "recreational" class it won't be limiting as your skills and interest expand. They are suitable for club paddles, lake and sea fishing, 30 mile open water day tours, small wave surfing, rock hopping, tidal race play, rolling, creeking, etc...
Most nowadays are skegged, which makes paddling open water in wind much more enjoyable in many conditions.
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Posted by: johnheiam on Jan-29-14 8:53 PM (EST)
This advice is all good. The Manitou 13 is fast, and light for its size and material. I think you would be very happy with it. After you buy the kayak and get a rack, think about getting a better paddle. A $100 paddle is four times better than a $50 paddle. A $200 paddle is twice as good as a $100 paddle. A $400 paddle will make you think you have died and come back with a stronger body. Go out with the club and switch paddles with some experienced members. Lifting a paddle in the shop does not compare to actually using it after you have been paddling for a couple of hours.
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Two more choices|
Posted by: cicadidae on Jan-31-14 11:07 AM (EST)
I found two Kevlar kayaks. They both are at quite a distance from me and I can't find much info on either.
One is the tchaika
The other is called hop on top.
I see that the tchaika is for smaller people. I am short at 5' but I weigh 159. I think I will always be somewhat chubby even though I work out so I'm concerned that this one will not fit well. It is going for $500
The owner of the hop on top says he has been in races in it and came in close. It looks like a nice kayak. He wants $650
I know I was ambivalent about SOTs but this looks pretty sweet.
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Posted by: cicadidae on Jan-31-14 11:25 AM (EST)
It seems that the hop on top can be tippy and is meant for people with more experience than I.
I am leaning towards the necky manitou. It sounds like a reliable kayak that I can handle with good ratings.
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but I just lost two more pounds and..|
Posted by: cicadidae on Jan-31-14 12:50 PM (EST)
That tschaika is nice!
Sorry for bothering you all. You have been so helpful!
From everything you all said, a step up from plastic would be good. Anything over 10' is best. And narrow.
This kayak is light, 14' long, and built for people with shorter arms. The owner says she has beat people in plastic 16' kayaks in it.
Comes with a PFD too. For 500 and maybe I can get it down to 400.
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Posted by: amf on Jan-31-14 3:28 PM (EST)
I've paddled all three - bliss, zydeco, and manitou. Of them all I would choose the manitou, hands down. Although faster than the others, I do think that after some seat time you will find it seriously slow - which will be an excuse to get a better boat.
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Depends on goals|
Posted by: Guideboatguy on Jan-31-14 3:39 PM (EST)
I'd be confident in making a wager that more than 90 percent of all people who paddle kayaks never feel the urge or need to upgrade to anything faster than a wide, tub of a rec boat. Between that extreme and the other would be the type of people who'd be happy to stick with the Manitou (or something like it) forever.
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on the manitou|
Posted by: cicadidae on Jan-31-14 4:29 PM (EST)
well, I found a used 14' for $750. Its coming from a company not a private person so I am guessing that it is in good running condition (no broken parts).
I keep hearing so many good things about the manitou and a lot of you are suggesting the 14. For just a little bit more it probably would be a kayak I would keep forever. With two bulkheads I can go camping and the skeg will allow me added tracking. Another thing about it is that if I wanted to show my friend how to use it, this kayak could handle him as he is almost 300lbs. The smaller kayaks, not so much.
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I haven't a lot of experience |
Posted by: elcarajo on Feb-04-14 9:23 PM (EST)
with other boats, but I have tried the Zydeco, and it was a cow.
My own boat is a Perception Carolina 14, and my mother had rented a 11 foot Zydeco, and it was very slow, massively prone to weathercocking, and it was no more maneuverable than my boat.
As I mentioned, I haven't tried a lot of kayaks, but I have been very happy with the Carolina 14 as an all-rounder. I'm starting to think about longer and narrower since I spend a lot of time in open water, but it's hard to imagine a better go-to boat than the one I've got.
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