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Advice, Suggestions and General Help New Topic Printer Friendly Version

  Dry suit question
  Posted by: Myrlene on Dec-15-13 11:01 AM (EST)
   Category: unassigned 

-- Last Updated: Dec-15-13 12:22 PM EST --

So I'm ready to buy my first dry suit and have a few questions. I live in a pretty warm climate so this won't be needed with the exception of a few months of the year.
I've been told that my best bet would be to go with kokatat. Unfortunately, this is going to set me back $1000 or so, which I really don't have right now. On the other hand, I've seen some pretty good deals on eBay within my price range.
I don't want to bargain with my life, but my money is pretty tight right now. Salesman out the local outfitters swears kokatat is the only way to go and any less would likely result in a waste of money or worse, equipment failure.
I have zero experience with dry suits so id really appreciate any input.


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Messages in this Topic

 

  Options
  Posted by: pblanc on Dec-15-13 11:33 AM (EST)
-- Last Updated: Dec-15-13 12:17 PM EST --

I don't think you would be risking your life to go with a brand other than Kokatat. Latex gaskets are basically the same among all brands and are the element most likely to fail. I think so long as you bought a new dry suit from a reputable maker, the chances of catastrophic seam or zipper failure would be pretty remote.

I have known people who have used dry suits made by NRS, Bomber Gear, Stohlquist, Immersion Research, OS Systems, and Level Six who have been happy with them. I'm sure others will suggest other brands as well.

On the other hand, I think there is some element of truth in what you were told. In my experience with dry tops, semi-dry tops, and dry suits, Kokatat seems to have been the most durable. The seam tapes have held up better than other brands. Kokatat is the only maker that produces Gore-Tex dry tops and dry suits. Other makers offer suits in other types of breathable fabrics.

Opinion is divided on the breathability of various fabrics and how much more comfort they offer compared to coated nylon. My experience is that they are somewhat more comfortable than coated nylon, partly because they seem to be more supple. But the Gore-Tex garments Kokatat makes seem also to be incredibly durable. I have a Kokatat Gore-Tex dry top that I have been using for about 18 years. I have replaced the wrist and neck seals a couple of times, but the fabric is still going strong. I recently bought a used Kokatat Gore-Tex dry suit in good shape with 4 year old seals for $500. I can only say I wish I had bought one earlier and saved the money I spent trying to get by with cheaper brands.

Any decent new dry suit you choose is probably going to have a list price of $500-600 or more although I have seen sale prices on new suits as low as $300-400.

 
 
  Kokatat versus rest
  Posted by: Peter-CA on Dec-15-13 11:53 AM (EST)
Kokatat has the best warranty and is the only one allowed by Gore to make dry suits with GoreTex, which is considered then most breathable material.

As said before, they all use the same gaskets.

None of the breathable materials can keep up with you when sweating. Goretex is just a little better at it.

My first was a closeout from Palm. lasted a few years before the material gave out, at which point it was not warrantiable. Replaced it with a Kokatat.
 
 
  Dry suit vs paddling suit
  Posted by: Marshall on Dec-15-13 12:20 PM (EST)
-- Last Updated: Dec-15-13 12:21 PM EST --

What is the amount of time you foresee yourself rolling, playing rapids or surf or is this for touring kayaking as a measure of warmth and insurance against the accidental out of boat experience? If the later the Kokatat Light Weight Goretex Paddling Suit (

 
 
  Agree completely
  Posted by: pikabike on Dec-15-13 12:56 PM (EST)
Kokatat Gore-Tex drysuit isn't the only way to go, but it's the best for balancing breathability against watertightness and quality in general, including customer support.

Stohlquist used to make Gore-Tex drysuits, and that's what my first drysuit was. But they stopped taking those suits in for repairs (even when I offered to pay for the repairs). A Gore-authorized seamstress told me that the Velcro they had used was an inferior knock-off, and that's why the Velcro strip was falling apart. That, at least, was a repair I could get done locally. The suit's later coming apart at the seams was not.
 
 
  Many others exist
  Posted by: willi_h2o on Dec-15-13 12:38 PM (EST)
-- Last Updated: Dec-15-13 12:44 PM EST --

NO ONE has cornered the market on drysuits - it is hype.

Other manufacturers exist making great gear
without the constant marketing ""buzz"" .

Example OS Systems
http://ossystems.com/surface/

Example Immersion Research
http://www.immersionresearch.com/store/dry-suits/arch-rival-dry-suit/

Example NRS
http://www.nrs.com/category/2572/men/drysuits

Are you entering the pro category,
kayaking 5 times a week or more,
maybe leading tour groups daily,
making business money off your gear choices,
..uh, no, you say, perhaps not ?

Re-think the expense and re-evaluate the useage.
Twenty trips a year needing a dry suit ?
That's almost 50% of the 52 weekends a year.

The rest of the time it will ""sit"" in a box,
unused, dormant, awaiting your next adventure.

 
 
  Wetsuits as an alternative
  Posted by: seadart on Dec-15-13 2:11 PM (EST)
I'll get flamed but most of us who play on the ocean on a regular basis actually wear wetsuits. Search for threads for wetsuits. if you live in a warmer region of the US you can probably find a decent wetsuit that will work for water temps down to 45F for about $160 -180
 
 
  If you can tolerate the restriction and
  Posted by: ezwater on Dec-15-13 3:17 PM (EST)
constriction that goes with a full wetsuit, more power to you.

I had a custom-made wetsuit, and besides the constriction, it messed up my proprioception. I understand that the latest wetsuits are better, but for whitewater paddling, wetsuits are just "out" for me.
 
 
  It's more a matter of cold tolerance
  Posted by: pikabike on Dec-16-13 4:15 PM (EST)
-- Last Updated: Dec-16-13 4:16 PM EST --

Didn't seadart just post details on another pnet msg, of how well he takes cold water?

While I sometimes use a full wetsuit in sub-50-degree water, it's only when I consider a capsize highly unlikely, and in a protected area with shoreline close, with air temps over 50 degrees.

 
 
  Insurance
  Posted by: acadia on Dec-15-13 2:45 PM (EST)
-- Last Updated: Dec-15-13 2:46 PM EST --

I agree that a good surfing wetsuit is a viable alternative. Cheaper and more durable than a drysuit. Less comfortable for general paddling, especially tripping, though arguably more comfortable for rough water (neoprene provides a bit of padding, plus you aren't freaking out about ripping the material).

The extra expense of a Kokatat suit is all about the Gore-tex warranty, which is built into the cost. Think of it as insurance. Gore will replace any garment that delaminates, including a full drysuit. I've had a suit replaced, as have friends, so I know from experience that the warranty is pretty solid. That's what you pay for.

But there are cheaper alternatives to Kokatat and cheaper alternatives to drysuits. Cost/benefit analysis is dependent on a bunch of factors, such as where, how often, and in what manner you paddle, as well as personal comfort and budget.

 
 
  I picked up a wetsuit this fall...
  Posted by: johnysmoke on Dec-15-13 9:48 PM (EST)
I got a 4\3 hooded wetsuit for kayak surfing and SUPing, for when it's not cold enough (water above 45 degrees) to really warrant a drysuit. Works great so far, although it's gotten too cold to use it by now. Was surprised by how comfortable and warm it is, and how you actually stay pretty dry in it. Not sure I'd want to tour in it all day, but for playing around in the surf or rough water it's great. Might invest in a 6\5 for winter kayak surfing use. Only downside to the wetsuit I can see if it takes longer to change in and out of.

I'm on my third drysuit in eight years and it's a Kokatat. Started off with a basic NRS suit, wore that out after a year or two, and upgraded to a nice Palm suit. The Palm suffered some delamination issues, was replaced under warranty, but with the understanding it would never happen again, as Palm soon pulled out of the US. So I sold the new Palm to put towards a new Kokatat. The Palm was designed really well and fit well, but the build quality on the Kokatat is exceptional, as is the warranty. Hopefully the last drysuit I'll have to buy for a long time.
 
 
  Many options; consider used
  Posted by: Glenn_MacGrady on Dec-16-13 1:09 AM (EST)
I've had four different dry suits over the past 30 years--different brands, different materials. One was Goretex.

They all worked fine for heavy duty whitewater and some sea paddling in the northeast. None leaked except trivially due to punctures. If you are not going to be bushwhacking through brush or bashing down rocky whitewater rivers during a swim, and if you are going to use the suit infrequently, the chances of some dangerous "failure" of a dry suit are very slim -- so long as you periodically inspect the suit and keep it in good condition. Driving your car to and from the water will be more dangerous.

Small holes and tears can be repaired with Aquaseal. Neck and wrist gaskets, the parts most likely to wear, are easily replaced.

Budget is important. There are always used dry suits up for sale on many sites. People buy the hugely expensive Kokatat products, don't use them, and often sell them in fine condition. Even cheaper, look for a used non-Goretex suit from a name brand. For example, you can search on paddleswap.com, craigslist, or the classified ads on this site.
 
 
  More details?
  Posted by: Celia on Dec-16-13 6:27 AM (EST)
To do the disclaimer - we live in the northeast, I wouldn't try to get thru a full year of paddling without a dry suit and we have had tremendous luck with Kokatat due to their enforcement of the Goretex warranty. They WILL replace a suit if they see delamination, unlike any other manufacturer I know. So even though I have a neck chemistry that seems to eat latex gaskets, it still works out best over time for me to have invested in one of their suits.

But if money is tight, I'd suggest that you consider alternatives for this season. And there may be better ways to spend those bucks this year.

A dry suit will only help if you capsize in water really chilly water - say stuff in the low 40's or below - if you also have hood and gloves up to the job (of course good layers under the drysuit) AND are well-practiced at self-rescue. Even with all the good gear, water that cold is disorienting as hell unless you have a bunch of good habits at the ready. And you do not have the time you think you'll have to get back in the boat. Frozen hands and minds stop being effective a lot sooner than the charts say you are medically compromised.

Even in more southern climes, if you are talking inland water it could be these temps.

I also can't tell if you would be paddling alone or with company, and if that company could be helpful.

If you don't have practice invested in self-rescue, and assisted if you are with others, it might be a better use of time and bucks for you to find a place doing pool sessions where you can learn this stuff. Then look for a lightly used good suit as this winter closes.
 
 
  Kokatats are consistently available
  Posted by: deuce on Dec-16-13 11:21 AM (EST)
in the $500 range used but in very good condition on Ebay, Kayak Academy and paddling message board gear swap sections. That would be a good option IMO. It's certainly true that people paddled without them for many years and did just fine, and you probably would too, but they sure are nice. Last May at one of our paddling schools the weather was more like December (highs in the thirties and sleeting). A paddling bud who knew I didn't have a drysuit insisted on sending me his to wear. I tested it one day by volunteering to be a guinea pig for throw rope practice. Sure makes the prospect of a swim in adverse conditions a lot less daunting.
 
 
  drysuit sizing
  Posted by: pbenter on Dec-16-13 2:31 PM (EST)
Be sure you know your right size. Manufacturer's sizes will vary. I recently bought a new Kokatat on sale over Black Friday weekend. I almost ordered it online, mostly convinced I was a large.

In the end, I drove and ferried from Seattle out to Port Gamble to try on suits. My long torso put me into an x-large. Sizing charts are only a place to start.
 
 
  Good point.
  Posted by: deuce on Dec-16-13 3:01 PM (EST)
I'm 6' 175, certainly a large by any clothing manufacturer's measurements, but with what I wear underneath I'm comfy in an XL.
 
 
  Even more true for wetsuits
  Posted by: pikabike on Dec-16-13 4:26 PM (EST)
Sizing varies so much that their size charts are next to useless.

By the way, that shop in Port Gamble is really good! I recently discovered them.
 
 
  Me Too
  Posted by: jaybabina on Dec-17-13 8:27 AM (EST)
6'2" thinner build, I take an extra large for the length.
 
 
  question
  Posted by: blitzemall on Dec-17-13 12:19 PM (EST)
What about 1 piece vs 2?
 
 
  I have used both
  Posted by: pblanc on Dec-17-13 1:05 PM (EST)
-- Last Updated: Dec-17-13 3:17 PM EST --

I have a Kokatat Gore-Tex dry top that I have used extensively when paddling a decked boat. A few years ago I bought a used Kokatat Whirlpool bib to use with it to make a 2 piece dry suit. And I have also used 1 piece front entry dry suits.

There are advantages and disadvantages to both. If you are careful mating the tunnels together very little water gets through the junction. I wore this two piece outfit during a recent ACA Swiftwater Rescue Conference. We spent a good bit of time in the water, often in pretty strong current, and I stayed dry. The two piece suit also eliminates the need for a long, stiff entry zipper. If there is a drive to get to the put-in I like being able to put the bib and my shoes on at some convenient spot and then just pull the drytop on before I get in or on the water. I also like being able to use the bib with a short sleeve dry top in warmer air temps.

But mating the tunnels is a bit of a pain (easier with someone behind you helping) and after folding the tunnels together three times there is something like a rather wide belt circling you just above waist level which some people don't like. And the cost of a good bib and dry top is probably going to be greater than a one piece dry top.

 
 
  I've had both also and agree . . .
  Posted by: Glenn_MacGrady on Dec-17-13 2:03 PM (EST)
-- Last Updated: Dec-17-13 2:06 PM EST --

. . . with all the points made by pblanc.

In general, I guess I like the two piece better, because that's the latest and most expensive one I ever bought. It's a Kokatat Goretex, but with an open-up-able collar and hood, which they used to call the "sea touring" model or something like that. So it's not really 100% dry around the neck if your head is submerged. However, the open collar is great for ventilation.

My very first dry suit was also a two piece. I tested it by jumping into the snow melt class 4 Freight Train rapid on the Contoocook River in New Hampshire in March. I had safety ropers on the banks. The folding join line didn't leak. I then test floated an easy stretch of the Contoocook with no PFD, just using the unburped air in the suit.

The openable collar design works for me because it's my personal experience that I don't tip over very often, don't get my head wet much even when falling out of an open canoe, and that it doesn't matter much if a cup of water or so gets inside the suit, which is almost always damp inside anyway. However, I'm not a chronic roller, so someone who is would probably want a traditional neck gasket two piece dry suit.

I wear the bib alone a real lot for open canoeing and wading. I don't wear the top alone nearly as much, but it could be used as a dry or rain top. You can roll-mate the top with certain kayak skirts -- or you could with the equipment of about 10 years ago.

 
 
  I went from 2 to 1
  Posted by: pikabike on Dec-17-13 6:12 PM (EST)
The one-piece is far better. The slight cost difference is worth it.
 
 
  2 vs. 1
  Posted by: Marshall on Dec-17-13 10:00 PM (EST)
If the two piece is a combination of dry pants and dry top them unless you have a very rare pair of dry pants with a tunnel like bibs then it will always leak on a swim. Usually right at the small of the back where the least amount of tension on the waist band makes for the weakest sealing point on the waist.

Go one piece until its lighter weight neoprene weather (Kokatat neo-core for example)

See you on the water,
Marshall
The River Connection, Inc.
Hyde Park, NY
www.the-river-connection.com
hudsonriverpaddler.org
 
 
  When that seal breaks, it's hilarious
  Posted by: pikabike on Dec-17-13 11:31 PM (EST)
...as long as you're just practicing in warm water and air.

Dunk! Then GlubGlubGlubGlub, whoooooosh in comes the water and suddenly you get gigantic, two-ton legs that create odd floaty balance situations in the water and make it impossible to walk when you manage to swim (? if you could call it that) to shore. Then the real fun begins! Carefully open up one ankle gasket and WHOOOOOOSH out pours a torrent. Repeat for the other side.

Yup, 1-piece is better.
 
 
  What type of system are you describing
  Posted by: pblanc on Dec-18-13 7:21 AM (EST)
-- Last Updated: Dec-19-13 2:28 PM EST --

I don't know what type of two piece dry suit you had but I don't think what you are describing is an accurate reflection of how a proper two piece dry suit works.

The pants or bib of a proper two piece dry suit has an outer tunnel that starts at about pectoral level. This mates with the inner tunnel of a dry top by pulling the dry top tunnel down over the bib tunnel, matching the edges, then folding the two tunnels together three or more times like the seal on many dry bags. The mated tunnels are then covered with the tunnel of a spray skirt in the case of a decked boater, then the outer tunnel and waistband of the dry suit is pulled down over the junction and secured. The mated tunnels wind up being between pectoral and waist level, closer to the former, and are also covered by a PFD. This video shows the process:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xy6V03W9gXY

It is possible that a small amount of water could leak through in a prolonged swim just as a small amount of water can make its way into a roll top dry bag. But I have not had a properly designed and properly mated dry top and bib combo, such as those made by Kokatat, just come apart. In fact, I have sometimes been absent minded and tried to pull my dry top off without unmating the tunnels and they won't come apart despite a good tug. Of course, this is only the case if one properly mates the tunnels together.

This product review of a Kokatat Tropos Whirlpool Bib by Colorado Kayak Supply also describes the procedure. I think the comments pertaining to the pros and cons of a two piece dry suit are very accurate.

http://cksblog.com/2008/12/kokatat-tropos-whirlpool-bibs-product-review/

I think those to whom a Bib dry pant would most appeal are decked boaters who already own a quality dry top, or plan to purchase one. So long as the dry top has an inner tunnel it will mate with a Kokatat Bib. It need not be a Kokatat dry top. Buying a dry top and Bib instead of a full dry suit allows the flexibility to use the dry top alone in moderate conditions in which a swim is unlikely.

On the other hand, neck gasket failure can occur with any dry suit and can be potentially dangerous. In a normal swimming posture a blown neck gasket is largely above the water surface but if a gasket blows during a long swim in heavy whitewater, or while a boater is getting trashed in a hole, a lot of water can enter the suit at the neck quickly and make swimming very difficult. That is something I have heard of.

Zippers on one piece suits can fail as well. Catastrophic zipper failure should be very uncommon on a quality dry suit, but what is fairly common is for an individual to think the zipper is closed but leave a half inch gap at the end open. It takes a fair bit of force to close and seal that last bit. Leaving relief zippers open is another not too uncommon mistake.

I am guessing that your experience was with a pair of waterproof dry pants that only came waist high and just had a neoprene waistband. If so, I agree those will not keep you dry and could be potentially dangerous.

 
 
  Of course you need to have a tunnel
  Posted by: pblanc on Dec-18-13 7:54 AM (EST)
-- Last Updated: Dec-18-13 8:09 AM EST --

I would not recommend wearing any type of water proof pants with either attached socks or latex ankle gaskets without a tunnel and a proper dry top for anything other than wading where there was no chance of swimming. The likelihood of the pants legs filling with water during a swim is too great.

On the other hand, it is fine to wear a pair of dry pants with a loose ankle closure and a dry top. I have done so many times when paddling a decked boat. If you swim you will get wet but a huge amount of water will not be trapped in the legs of the dry pants.

 
 
  I was talking tunneled suits, too
  Posted by: Glenn_MacGrady on Dec-18-13 5:11 PM (EST)
Both my 30 year old two-piece from overseas and my newer two-piece Kokatat dry suit have stretchy fabric tunnels you fold or roll together. This system DOES NOT leak. I've gone long, bashing distances in snow melt class 4+ rapids in such a suit, including an interminable nightmare windowshading in the hole at Big Nasty on the Cheat at high water, which completely unzipped my PFD. (Thankfully I had replaced the waist ties with prusik ropes and a carabiner). No leaks.

The dry top of the tunnel gizmo can mate with a compatible spray skirt for a decked whitewater boat or seakayak for a water tight seal while you wear something that breathes and is more comfortable below decks.

Given all this, plus the utility of using the bib alone for in between season, well-ventilated upper body open boating, makes the two-piece suit very versatile.

The biggest negative, in my opinion, which isn't really that bad, is the thick clump of folded material you end up with around your waist.

Y swims MV.
 
 
  Kokatat Hydrus 3L Meridian
  Posted by: suzanneh on Dec-18-13 12:53 PM (EST)
I was hoping that someone else would mention this option but nobody has so...http://kokatat.com/products/dry-suits/hydrus-3l-dry-suit-with-relief-zipper-socks-men.html

The Hydrus 3L carries a lifetime warranty, also made in the USA. All suits get tested prior to shipping as the Gore-Tex suits do.

The Hydrus 3 L is a good alternative to Gore-Tex. Save about 25% of the cost of a Gore-Tex suit. Not quite as breathable and probably not as durable but same warranty against the material failing before the life of the garment.

Additional benefit is that the factory can do their own repairs when they are needed.

Suz
(New England Sales Rep for Kokatat)
 
 
  Yep
  Posted by: blitzemall on Dec-18-13 2:27 PM (EST)
Those are the two I've been looking at as a more affordable alternative.
 
 
  this may be way premature
  Posted by: kayamedic on Dec-18-13 2:40 PM (EST)
-- Last Updated: Dec-18-13 2:40 PM EST --

but my friend Bob is launching Mythic Gear.. carrying affordable drysuits.

https://www.facebook.com/mythicgear

Bob is based in coastal Maine.

 
 
  Less than $1000
  Posted by: jbernard on Dec-18-13 8:02 PM (EST)
For less than full-on brutally cold winter conditions or > 20 days/ year hard use, I would look at the Kokatat Lightweight Gore-tex paddling suit. It is the lighter weight Gore-Tex Paclight which breathes better than the heavier, standard Gore-Tex. It has neprene gaskets which make it significantly more comfortable to wear but will let a small amount of water in (usually just a few drips per immersion). If you can tolerate that it is a great suit.
kokatat.com/products/paddling-suits/gore-texr-lightweight-paddling-suit-men-radish-gray.html
 
 
  JB, yep.
  Posted by: Marshall on Dec-18-13 9:57 PM (EST)
Like I said way back at the beginning of this thread, the Kokatat Light Weight Suit has fitted many a touring and SUP paddler precisely the amount of protection with excellent comfort and a price point that makes the investment in a longer paddling season more appealing.

See you on the water,
Marshall
The River Connection, Inc.
Hyde Park, NY
www.the-river-connection.com
hudsonriverpaddler.org
 
 
  New supplier, lowest-priced drysuits
  Posted by: bobholtzman on Jan-21-14 2:18 PM (EST)
Mythic Gear recently launched its new line of drysuits at the lowest prices in North America. Breathable fabric, SCUBA-quality gaskets and zippers, and pricing literally hundreds below other brands. I'm president and founder and I'll be glad to take your calls, answer questions. www.MythicDrysuits.com
 
 
  I went with NRS
  Posted by: bmach1 on Jan-24-14 12:37 AM (EST)
Six years later and it started to leak a little. I sent it in and they gave me what I paid for it Boater Bucks. Which I used to buy a new dry suit.
 
 
  Oops
  Posted by: jbernard on Jan-24-14 5:26 PM (EST)
Sorry, missed your post.
 

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