Some kayaks are twitchy, think Nordkapps. Some are not, think Cetus. Other examples of each abound.
Often, but not always, one can get used to twitchiness. But it seems to me there is no inherent advantage to twitchiness. You can get the same quick response, performance, etc., in a less twitchy boat. Does anyone actually prefer more twitchiness to less?
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Posted by: ppine on Nov-19-13 1:27 PM (EST)
Twitchiness or tenderness in a boat is not something anyone really likes. It is something to deal with in exchange for a high level of secondary stability.
No one likes twitchy, many seek it|
Posted by: Kocho on Nov-19-13 2:02 PM (EST)
That's good..... but this is a case |
Posted by: ezwater on Nov-19-13 4:58 PM (EST)
where just looking at a hull may not predict what it will do. I have an old Phoenix c-1 with a rather elliptical bottom, and you would think it would be twitchy. But it isn't. It is a bit loose around dead center, but firms up very predictably as it tips.
Posted by: Kocho on Nov-19-13 6:21 PM (EST)
The Phoenix hull has little flare |
Posted by: ezwater on Nov-20-13 1:10 PM (EST)
above the water line, especially with me in it. It always surprised me how stable it feels, more stable than my Hahn, which was roundish but with more rocker. The Phoenix did have that problem with roundness, because it didn't ferry well and raising an edge to confront oncoming current didn't work.
Posted by: gjf12 on Nov-19-13 6:15 PM (EST)
Kocho wrote: "You can't get the same performance and responsiveness in a non-twitchy boat vs. a twitchy one, if both are maximizing their potential. "
Based on reviews ...|
Posted by: Kocho on Nov-19-13 6:28 PM (EST)
Posted by: gjf12 on Nov-20-13 1:48 AM (EST)
A friend of mine who owns a Nordkapp LV, among other boats, is vaguely thinking of the Cetus LV precisely because he thinks it is faster. (Less rocker on the Cetus?) I have no opinion myself other than that any difference in speed is likely to be minimal and undetectable.
Posted by: mcimes on Nov-19-13 2:10 PM (EST)
Cargo - ballast - gear|
Posted by: willi_h2o on Nov-19-13 3:58 PM (EST)
Boats are for transporting stuff and far too many
Posted by: slushpaddler on Nov-20-13 8:54 AM (EST)
Some Yes. Some No.|
Posted by: Kudzu on Nov-23-13 5:38 AM (EST)
My cohorts and I are primarily road bike people who sometimes kayak. 95% of our kayaking is day trips laden with little more than lunch. We don't use road bikes as vehicles for camping trips and seldom use kayaks that way. Boat makers need to keep us in mind.
If speed isn't important . . . |
Posted by: Glenn_MacGrady on Nov-20-13 12:21 AM (EST)
. . . I can't think of any good reasons FOR ME to have a twitchy hull.
Stiff and twithcy|
Posted by: pgeorg on Nov-20-13 6:55 AM (EST)
As Glenn has pointed out there comes a time when twitchy is no longer tolerable. The supple youngster compensates for twitchy with smooth quick body movements. The old guy can no longer move quickly or smoothly and will be, at best, uncomfortable with twithcy; at worst he'll be wet. Finally, rigor mortis sets in, you lay him out in the bottom of the boat and twitchy does not matter.
not just speed|
Posted by: NateHanson on Nov-20-13 7:00 AM (EST)
Twitchy, to me is just a pejorative way of saying "easy to edge". Flat bottom boats like the Delphin or Cetus take more paddler input to put on edge. The Nordkapp is much easier to edge with your butt. I think "twitchier" boats allow a more intuitive body-boat connection, but every good thing has it's extremes, and at some point that "easy to edge" feel may turn into "too hard to keep upright".
Yes easier to edge|
Posted by: nebeginner on Nov-24-13 7:34 AM (EST)
I'm a novice here, don't have all the technical terms down. To me, the Nordlow is easy to edge. The easiest of any kayak I have owned or paddled.
Twitchy is not a hull characterisitc....|
Posted by: Celia on Nov-20-13 9:29 AM (EST)
Posted by: mcimes on Nov-20-13 9:52 AM (EST)
at the local races, a guy who paddled an Olympic K1 tried out a friends V12 and sat on it like a rock. I could barely stay in the V12 when I demo'd it.
Posted by: slushpaddler on Nov-20-13 9:56 AM (EST)
Yes, that's it.|
Posted by: Guideboatguy on Nov-20-13 12:55 PM (EST)
Those words mean the same thing, and they definitely ARE a characteristic of hull shape, and one that could be quantitatively measured if one wanted to. The point has already been made that a "twitchy" hull (or tender, tippy, whatever) has other characteristics that may be desirable for certain purposes.
it's a subjective term|
Posted by: slushpaddler on Nov-20-13 3:31 PM (EST)
That's what I meant|
Posted by: Guideboatguy on Nov-20-13 5:13 PM (EST)
You can definitely measure the torque required to lean a boat "x" degrees and with "y" load on board (load distributed in some defined way of course). A boat that feels more "twitchy" to a particular person than some other boat WILL require less torque to make it lean by some amount. I was ignoring the fact that an the comfort level regarding this attribute will vary from one person to the next, but not ignoring the fact that any individual's tolerance to "tippyness" will invariably be judged in the context of some other desirable attribute of the hull. Fair enough?
Posted by: wilsoj2 on Nov-23-13 9:37 PM (EST)
Thank you. Twitchy strikes me as the term many paddlers use the first time they are in a boat with less primary (and possibly directional) stability than they are used to paddling.
Posted by: gjf12 on Nov-20-13 11:57 AM (EST)
Celia wrote: "Speed to accelerate, cruising speed and degrees of heel are oft-measured hull characteristics....."
Sea Kayaker stability curves|
Posted by: Celia on Nov-20-13 11:58 PM (EST)
Posted by: Andy_Szymczak on Nov-20-13 3:38 PM (EST)
First time I paddled my CLC many years ago it was twitchy, for 5 minutes. First time in my Artisan Millenium, it was twitchy, for 2 minutes. My surf ski embodies twitchyness, and becomes twitchy if I tense up. Which I rarely do! My Summersong was never twitchy!
tippy vs. twitchy|
Posted by: Jaybabina on Nov-20-13 4:24 PM (EST)
Posted by: slushpaddler on Nov-20-13 5:09 PM (EST)
I really liked demoing one but when stationary it sort of felt like that.
Posted by: water_walker on Nov-20-13 6:36 PM (EST)