Looking to get a small boat to practice rolling in a friends pool. There is a good deal on a Perception 3D near us, complete with skirt, paddle, etc.
Would this be a good boat for rolling practice? I believe at 5'10" and 180 lbs the boat will fit, just not sure if I should even bother with learning to roll a whitewater boat when my passion is for sea kayaking.
Rescue / Throw Bags
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Fine if the price is right|
Posted by: seadart on Oct-19-13 2:18 PM (EST)
3D is pretty old boat now, so you don't want to pay more than $300.
Cheap and fun...|
Posted by: 72hw on Oct-20-13 9:24 AM (EST)
G2d ponta out below that the play boat may introduce facets to the roll a sea kayak may not be subject to. I am worried about developing bad technique, but agree with you about becoming a better 'all around' paddler. I would most definitely try my luck on rivers, etc. in a small boat as I can't see that doing anything but helping.
Don't worry about bad technique|
Posted by: seadart on Oct-20-13 1:47 PM (EST)
If you can roll a modern whitewater boat, you can roll most any seakayak.
Dive board launch?|
Posted by: pikabike on Oct-21-13 12:06 AM (EST)
We asked for forgivness not permiss.|
Posted by: seadart on Oct-22-13 2:10 PM (EST)
Posted by: davejjj on Oct-19-13 3:26 PM (EST)
Make sure you fit in the boat. Some of these types of boats can be very tight on your feet.
If The Pool Isn't Too Small...|
Posted by: Kudzu on Oct-19-13 3:48 PM (EST)
A sea kayak would be better. |
Posted by: g2d on Oct-19-13 9:02 PM (EST)
"Old school" kayaks 10' long or so will feel more like sea kayaks, but as I recall, the 3D is sort of "new school" and introduces elements into the roll that don't apply to rolling a sea kayak.
Posted by: 72hw on Oct-20-13 9:18 AM (EST)
Yes, I was wondering if this might be true. The planing hull on this boat must feel quite different than a displacement hull right? Would this lead to bad technique or just confuse things a little?
From someone who mixes it up...|
Posted by: Celia on Oct-20-13 10:12 AM (EST)
I have an original era Inazone for which I am probably about 10 pounds too heavy right now, but it serves as a great lazy way to do a pool session. I can throw it into the back of my station wagon and I don't care if I am rough on it getting it moved in and out to the pool. On very cold winter nights it is hard to make myself wrestle with a full length sea kayak and frozen straps if I have an alternative.
Remember that the part that planes|
Posted by: g2d on Oct-20-13 1:02 PM (EST)
is not in the water as you start your roll, and doesn't get in the water until you're close to finishing. Some kayaks are more stable in the upside down position than they are right side up. (I have such a boat, and it is long.)
Posted by: davejjj on Oct-20-13 10:24 PM (EST)
I suspect that a typical WW boat is easier to roll than a typical sea kayak because it is lower volume, and any low volume boat will be easier to roll than a similar length high volume boat, and that applies amongst WW boats also. A WW creekboat with big kneebumps is going to be more difficult to roll than a slim WW boat. Now WW boats with low-volume tails like playboats do feel different, because the tail sinks, and the boat does not feel like it is flat on the water.
Posted by: Celia on Oct-21-13 12:54 PM (EST)
Many WW boats are harder to roll than a well-fitting sea kayak because they are so wide and flat. A properly sized sea kayak for a paddler is well fit to their hips and volume and the hull is narrower and rounder. The part around your hips is mostly what matters - it's not like those long skinny ends aren't going to come along when you roll.
Part of the trick may be that in a very |
Posted by: g2d on Oct-21-13 3:21 PM (EST)
short ww kayak, any misdirected rolling effort may be wasted just in causing the upside down boat to hump toward its bow or stern.
Have heard that from Jackson owners|
Posted by: Celia on Oct-22-13 10:27 AM (EST)
... that Jackson has gotten ease of rolling back into the newer designs, especially the river running/play boats. I am not sure that is true of some of the play boats from other manufacturers. I know a couple of reliable rollers in both sea and WW who took a class in spring conditions on the Hudson in new play boats from a major manufacturer a couple of years ago. They both came back indicating that rolling the boats was much more difficult once they got at all fatigued. One bought a boat, the other decided they did not need to try and relive their 20's.
Posted by: davejjj on Oct-22-13 1:23 PM (EST)
I'm curious. Can you remember the name that flat pancake WW boat?
Not by now|
Posted by: Celia on Oct-22-13 3:45 PM (EST)
The young man was a terribly good WW paddler as was his father, who the boat might have started with years ago. That means it had had dueled with many rocks. Even if the name had been evident at some point, it wasn't by then.
Posted by: Wayne_Smith on Oct-20-13 10:07 AM (EST)
I use an old Perception Pirouette S in the pool (I used to do ww in it, and kept it). It's small enough to go thru any door, and it's super easy to roll. The rolls in that boat easily translate to a sea kayak.
Posted by: Kudzu on Oct-20-13 10:47 AM (EST)
That was the boat everyone got their first roll in at the classes I attended years back. People nearly fought to get to it first.
Piedra is even easier...|
Posted by: Celia on Oct-20-13 1:31 PM (EST)
if you can fit in it.
mechanics of rolling|
Posted by: jonsprag1 on Oct-20-13 7:35 PM (EST)
are the same for white water and sea kayaks--my experience is that most sea kayaks are a little easier to role than WW boats. And WW boats are a heck of a lot easier to get into a pool due to size
WW boat will not hurt your technique|
Posted by: pikabike on Oct-21-13 12:05 AM (EST)
As seadart already said, rolling a sea kayak will feel different from rolling a WW boat. But it's still the same roll. Assuming the boats fit you properly (this includes outfitting), if you fail in one and succeed in the other, something in your technique is not up to snuff.
Thanks to all!|
Posted by: 72hw on Oct-21-13 12:30 PM (EST)
What a great response to my question once again!
Dancer, RPM, etc|
Posted by: somalley on Oct-21-13 2:55 PM (EST)
You can probably find a Dancer with skirt for $50 if you look around, though they're starting to disappear from the market as more of them succumb to age/brittleness. With a tiny (by modern standards) cockpit and narrow, rounded hull, a Dancer is probably the closest approximation to a sea kayak - very log-like and easy to roll. Certainly the few sea kayaks I've been in rolled a lot like a Dancer.
Rolling depends on proprioceptive |
Posted by: g2d on Oct-21-13 1:32 PM (EST)
feedback, which will be different for very different boats. If I saw an experienced ww paddler climbing into a sea kayak for the first time, to go surf some waves, I would tip him over while he is close to shore, so he could find out how it feels to roll, or NOT roll, a sea kayak. I would not expect a roller with only sea kayak, or only ww playboat, experience to step into the other variety of boat and have instant surety with rolling.
Liquidlogic Lil Joe|
Posted by: 72hw on Oct-25-13 12:35 PM (EST)
I ended up getting a used Liquidlogic Lil Joe - it is in good condition and the cockpit fits me nicely. Going to add some foam for the hips and get a new skirt, the one it came with is a 2 man job together on, but I think I will have a lot of fun in it. Going to the pool this evening and hope to get it out in the surf as soon as I get the new skirt.
Posted by: Kudzu on Oct-25-13 4:19 PM (EST)