Looking to replace my Penobscot 16 with something that has similar performance, but is lighter. Any suggestions? I wish Old Town made them in a lighter layup.
Touring Kayak Paddles
Full Size Sail Rig
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Perhaps the Millbrook AC/DC. |
Posted by: ezwater on Oct-04-13 6:37 PM (EST)
Very light, fast, turns much better than a Penobscot. The S-glass/Kevlar layup is strong, but you'll have to expect the occasional repair. The original AC/DC was designed by Jon Berry to win the "combined" whitewater event, where performance on a slalom course is combined with performance on downriver.
Of the boats I've owned,|
Posted by: pgeorg on Oct-04-13 9:39 PM (EST)
the Bell Northstar feels a bit like the Penobscot and it is quite a bit lighter in any of the composites that were offered. But, it is out of production, so You'll have to look for a used one. I've owned and paddled both of these boats. The Northstar is probably a bit faster, too.
Mad River Explorer?|
Posted by: mrmannerz on Oct-04-13 9:42 PM (EST)
Heavier, slower than the Penobscot. |
Posted by: ezwater on Oct-04-13 9:51 PM (EST)
Posted by: groovymanatee on Oct-05-13 6:05 AM (EST)
is back in production as the Northwind 16. Ted Bell is making them on his own and will layup in white gold which is a less expensive but very durable construction. See Oakorchard Canoe website.
Tough to build a boat with |
Posted by: rpg51 on Oct-05-13 7:44 AM (EST)
the performance characteristics of royalex and all the other performance characteristics of the OT Penobscot and make it much lighter. I've always thought that the Penobscot is remarkable in that it is so light. Your gonna have to be making some sort of a compromise somewhere - need to think that through a bit so your search is focused on the type of boat you really want. Which performance characteristics of the OT Penobscot do you want to change?
I don't understand the question|
Posted by: davbart on Oct-05-13 1:29 PM (EST)
I really don't want to change the performance. I love the versatility of the Penobscot, paddle solo or tandem, decent speed, solo trip with a load and a dog. I still want those qualities just want it lighter.
You will have to go composite|
Posted by: pblanc on Oct-05-13 2:55 PM (EST)
I agree that to achieve any significant weight savings in a tandem canoe over the Penobscot 16 Rx you will have to look at a composite.
Kevlar Mad River Explorer|
Posted by: mrmannerz on Oct-05-13 5:10 PM (EST)
slower, but a lot lighter
What I mean is that |
Posted by: rpg51 on Oct-05-13 5:44 PM (EST)
royalex has performance characteristics that are different than composite. Generally composite will be stiffer and that makes it perform differently. So if you like the characteristics of a flexible (royalex) hull then you are not going to find anything lighter I don't think. But if a stiffer hull is ok for you - then sure you can spend a lot more and get a lighter boat.
You're right, but a Royalex boat can be|
Posted by: ezwater on Oct-06-13 1:26 AM (EST)
stiffened quite a bit by putting foam pedestals or struts between the thwarts and the bottom of the boat.
All true - but |
Posted by: rpg51 on Oct-06-13 5:26 AM (EST)
if the OP is paddling in any significant shallow white water with boulder hits likely he would be pushing the limits of a light layup composite boat. Sure, if you are expert, a light boat can be just the ticket. But for many a royalex boat might be the best choice. I once owned a 50 Lbs 16 foot prospector boat in a composite layup and it was fine - terrific actually - in white water so long as there was plenty of water. Without a lot of water it would take a real beating, and this was a heavy layup. I loved the boat but it was not the best choice in a shallow white water environment.
I wish I knew the answer, |
Posted by: n7zuq on Oct-06-13 1:16 AM (EST)
but I totally get the question. I love the Penobscot, but I'd love it more if it was 10-20 pounds lighter.
Not to worry|
Posted by: pgeorg on Oct-06-13 6:01 AM (EST)
about the fragile nature of composite boats. As we age a couple of things work in our favor here: First, we shy away from the from the really rough stuff where we are apt to bang up the boats and, because our clock is running, they don't have to last that long anyway. A friend once asked, as I was pussy-footing around some rocks in a composite, "you saving that boat for the next owner"?
Posted by: davbart on Oct-06-13 9:53 PM (EST)
Anyone paddle one of the composite versions?
Wenonah sundowner ?|
Posted by: LeeG on Oct-07-13 12:16 AM (EST)
Question for OP|
Posted by: rpg51 on Oct-07-13 9:31 PM (EST)
Why is it important to you that your canoe be lighter than 60 Lbs? When is it that the weight is causing troubles for you?
The Penobscot, I own is....|
Posted by: davbart on Oct-07-13 10:01 PM (EST)
15 years old, and showing the thousands of miles it has seen. Thinking of retiring it, so why not go lighter when hitting the portage trail?
A used Kevlar canoe|
Posted by: LeeG on Oct-08-13 11:32 AM (EST)
Posted by: davbart on Oct-08-13 11:59 AM (EST)
Just trying to figure out which one.
Posted by: JackL on Oct-08-13 12:00 PM (EST)
Posted by: rblturtle on Oct-08-13 2:53 PM (EST)
I own a pal and have paddled the Pnob. The are similar,but not the same. The pal is more a flatwater boat,the Pnob a little more moving water capible. Both are goot at being paddled solo if necessary.
Posted by: davbart on Oct-08-13 3:32 PM (EST)
First, I'm a little surprised that you said the Penobscot is better in moving water. Doesn't the Pal have rocker? What feature makes the Penobscot better in the moving water?
Posted by: rblturtle on Oct-08-13 7:27 PM (EST)
My pal is royalite,but I have paddled one of the light composit ones ,and it was similar to mine.To me the Bnob turned a better.It also has more freeboard. My son and I took my Pal down a class 2esh stream,and it didn't do well and we got wet even before we dumped. It is a sweet boat easy paddling boat in flat water,and with it's low freeboard,little bothered by the wind.
Posted by: TomF on Oct-10-13 9:45 AM (EST)
I agree with rpg51, including that compromise is the operative word. Royalex is incredibly durable but you pay for that with weight and some loss in efficiency. The OT P16 is a cool boat in that it is efficient, can be turned decently, takes ClassII rapids, can be set up for solo, and is light for a Royalex boat. The alternatives are similar design in Royalite or... a composite, the latter which IMOP will require good maneuvering skills and adequate water. Yes, Kevlar composite does take abuse but not the constant banging and grinding plastic can endure from bony shallow creeks, let alone a wrap around a rock. It is sort of a judgment call based on how and where you paddle, or want to paddle, or are willing to not paddle. So, seriously, why not have one of each :)? For a composite, do test paddle a Jensen 18 w/ a front slider seat) just because it is soooo much fun (several mfg's offer this hull; typically 38 lbs Kevlar). For some outfitters Wenonah builds Kevlar boats with bow/stern skid plates (really helps durability), maybe you can order one with that feature, or buy used from an outfitter, or perhaps other mfgs will accommodate the same idea. Note that it may be difficult to convert some of the other designs to work solo in the same manner as the P16, it is just really good for that. So that would make three boats, or four if you paddling partner wants to solo as well. No, I am not in the garage expansion business.
I've had a Penobscot....|
Posted by: Steve_in_Idaho on Oct-18-13 11:33 PM (EST)
...and still have access to it. We've paddled it side by side with the Malecite, and paddled the Malecite sxs with a Wenonah Escapade. Not a lot of difference in the performance, but the composite boats are a little more efficient - the Escapade seemingly the most so.
Posted by: davbart on Oct-21-13 1:49 PM (EST)
On g2d's recommendation, I looked at Millbrook's website, and the Coho caught my eye. I know it was designed primarily for poling (a skill I'm trying to learn), but how does it paddle, and would it be a possible Penobscot replacement?
As I recall,|
Posted by: pgeorg on Oct-22-13 6:43 AM (EST)
the Coho is an evolved version of the Souhegan with differential rocker (less in the stern). This is a design feature intended to improve tracking and probably does. However my estimate would be that the boat is still much more manueverable than the Penobscot and a lot crankier about tracking.
Other way around, I think.|
Posted by: steve_in_idaho on Oct-22-13 3:12 PM (EST)
The Coho came before the Souhegan, IIRC. I can't speak for the Souhegan - but TommyC1 can. Anyway....
I stand corrected|
Posted by: pgeorg on Oct-22-13 7:50 PM (EST)
I went to the Millbrook website to read what they say about the Coho and The Souhegan. The Souhegan is listed with 3" of rocker while the Coho is said to be only "slightly rockered". So, one can conclude that the Soho will probably track better than a Souhegan and therefore might be a reasonable candidate to replace a Penobscot.
Posted by: CEWilson on Oct-19-13 5:46 PM (EST)
Yost's redesign of the Bell NorthStar is the Swift Kewaydin 16. It can be had in the lower 30 lb range.
Posted by: bark-eater on Oct-20-13 9:34 AM (EST)
I test paddled the Kewaydin 15 solo last year, and thought it felt like a lighter and racier solo version of my Penobscot 16.
Malecite - Penobscot differences|
Posted by: steve_in_idaho on Oct-21-13 12:49 PM (EST)
Oh yeah - I was only thinking about forward speed/efficiency. Handling characteristics are definitely noticeably different. (Not better or worse - just different)