Great Products from the Buyers' Guide:
- Why it's important to try before you buy - shirlann - Sep-05-13 8:51 AM
Fit is just for starters.|
Posted by: magooch on Sep-05-13 12:03 PM (EST)
Whether, or not one can fit into a kayak is the first priority, but there's so much more to consider. To me, kayaks are no different than a lot of things (cars, trucks, motorcycles, bikes, etc.), so I would amend that to say that a boat must look right to me before it would even get the fit test. Even after looks and fit are satisfied, you're just getting started.
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you've obviously never driven a Saab|
Posted by: slushpaddler on Sep-05-13 12:27 PM (EST)
(you can't see the ugly from the inside!)
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There is only so much room|
Posted by: willi_h2o on Sep-05-13 1:57 PM (EST)
Each boat has unique configurations and while some of it
can be "padded out" with closed cell foam for fit,
many other items have no simple fix or adjustment.
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Because of wide set hip joints, I've had|
Posted by: g2d on Sep-05-13 4:37 PM (EST)
to cut windows in the sides of kayak seats. This doesn't seem to weaken seats much.
A short cockpit is very hard to deal with, unless it is canted up significantly so that a tall paddler can "shoot" his legs forward into the boat. Of course, rec kayaks rarely have short cockpits.
Once, trying on a Prijon Athlete, a slalom style ww kayak, I had to remove every speck of padding and outfitting. Then I was able to get in, and my lower body and thighs were OK, but my large feet had to be pointed forward in the nose of the boat, like feet of a ballet dancer, to fit. I decided that was not a viable way to paddle the boat.
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SOME experienced paddlers say that. |
Posted by: g2d on Sep-05-13 2:49 PM (EST)
Others, like me (40 years paddling, 15 boats purchased without paddling even one beforehand) say that, at most, a trial fitting on dry land may be enough.
Newbie paddlers can't judge boat handling by demos. They are better off relying on judgement borrowed from experienced paddlers. So, get an experienced (and hopefully intelligent) paddler to come along and demo your boat for you.
I've owned about half a dozen open boats, five decked c-1s, and five kayaks, one a touring kayak. For every single one, serious outfitting was needed before I could give it a meaningful trial. Fortunately, I have experience judging boat behavior from visual inspection, and I am very, very good at boat mods to make a boat fit.
So, I have purchased boats where I felt I knew how their hulls would perform, and I've only been wrong twice. And I've been able to judge in advance whether a boat could be cut to fit.
Being able to demo would be great, but I would have missed out on a bunch of great hulls because demos were out of the question.
I fear for those who rely on demos, because often their initial impression will be wrong. But if you can at least sit in a boat for fit, that's smart.
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agreed, take them for what they're worth|
Posted by: slushpaddler on Sep-05-13 3:02 PM (EST)
If one understands that a demo in controlled conditions only provides feedback for those conditions and that duration of time, one has the correct understanding. It can still be helpful but beyond that I agree with your suggestion.
Even then, two experienced paddlers' impressions of the very same boat may differ a bit.
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Some of my boats had already been |
Posted by: g2d on Sep-05-13 3:19 PM (EST)
vetted by both experienced paddlers and the unwashed masses. Some had been reviewed in Canoe and Kayak. One I bought from the Olympic paddler who had designed it.
As examples, I tried a Perception Dancer XT. The fit was marginal and the handling was mediocre. I traded up to a Perception Corsica, which in '93 had already been praised by a lot of big paddlers like me. I had to modify the cockpit, but on the water it was a dependable ride, much better than the XT. I bought a used Dagger Animas, based on many favorable reviews. Again I had to modify the seat and thigh braces, but while a bit small for my 215 pounds, it has great resistance to being upset from any direction.
When one reads an internet or magazine review, one has to be able to rate the objectivity and relevance of the reviewer's comments as well as what the reviewer is saying about the boat. I'm a psychologist. I can do that. Many others can too.
Judging hulls and predicting behavior is partly a right brain skill. I've managed OK so far. I see lots of folks on pnet who can do it.
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my two cents|
Posted by: KatieD on Sep-05-13 5:17 PM (EST)
I think trying is extremely important, even if you are a newbie and don't really know enough to judge. I tried out the WS Tempest 165 pro and then the CD Suka. The Tempest was great, though I could tell the fit was still a little loose. Measurement wise, they are very similar. The Tempest is more often fine for beginners than the Suka, which has been reviewed in a number of places as "not a beginner boat". If I hadn't tested them, and had just sat in them, I might have been intimidated by the Suka.
But I DID test the Suka, and it really blew the Tempest out of the water for me. I haven't done a lot of paddling, and I have no problem whatsoever handling the Suka. In fact, in my case, I'm in better control of the Suka than the Tempest because that tiny bit of fit difference and cockpit shape changed everything.
The hull shapes are different, and I would never have understood how they FEEL different unless I paddled them myself. You aren't giving newbies enough credit if you say they can't judge a boat for themselves from a demo. Sure, their feelings are going to change and they may grow out of the boat they choose. But if I had gone on "experienced paddlers" opinions(long time paddlers who own and work in my local paddle shop), they would have said the Suka was too much for me to handle, and said the Tempest was a better bet and a more universal favorite.
No one can judge how a individuals level of fitness, natural sense of balance, and intuitive skill will play out in the cockpit until they are in the kayak. One that feels tipsy and scary to one will feel responsive and exciting to another. You won't know until you paddle it. I had made my decision within 5 minutes of paddling the Suka, and after long days of paddling it this past long weekend, I know I made the right choice. She's perfect...for me.
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I think their point|
Posted by: KatieD on Sep-05-13 7:57 PM (EST)
may have been that they don't feel it is a reassuring-feeling kayak. Apparently the beginners they have dealt with like a "safe", stable feeling boat. With the Suka's v-hull and hard chines, it likes being on an edge and some novices don't like that feeling(this is what I'm assuming they are thinking). I do like that feel, and so I would definitely challenge their assertion that it is too lively for a beginner. So I agree with you! But I have encountered this brand of "experienced opinion" before..they think everything has to be dumbed down/made easier, instead of having the novice paddler test their limits.
Just like I've been told that beginners "need" to use a paddle float to re-enter after a wet exit, because other re-entries are too difficult. I hate paddle floats. Getting back into the Suka in fairly rough, big lake water was no problem for me and achieved first try cowboy scramble style. These types of experiences lead me to think that sometimes beginners are coddled by experienced paddlers into thinking they are less capable than they are, or that they need a huge skill-set before they try things on their own.
And that's why I think novices can tell if a boat is good for them or not - not as thoroughly as an experienced paddler, but well enough to make a huge difference in what kayak they settle on - they just need to be encouraged to try as many things as possible in the boat while they are in it. Even if it is calm water, you can still judge how your body feels in it and how the kayak reacts to your body.
The way I think of it, as a horse person, is: I would never, ever buy a broke horse without riding it first.(I've bought yearlings without riding them, obviously, but they are a blank slate) Some horses, for whatever intangible reason, just don't feel "right". And you can analyze everything about the horse on the ground, ask for expert opinions, and still never know what they are really like until you are on their back.
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My options are pretty limited|
Posted by: KatieD on Sep-06-13 12:11 AM (EST)
-- Last Updated: Sep-06-13 12:21 AM EST --
in Saskatchewan Canada. What the paddling stores around here sell the most of are rec kayaks and maybe some of the easy, entry-level sea kayaks. Almost nothing 21 inches and narrower. In fact, if I hadn't totally lucked out on a Suka coming up used, I most certainly would have had to buy it new..they don't even stock boats like that around here. The simply aren't in demand, and few buy them. Besides, I wasn't just in the market for a new kayak, or an upgrade on my rec kayak. I've never owned a boat before the Suka, and I had only ever paddled a small, wide, rec boat(and very infrequently at that) before I tested the Tempest and bought the Suka.
So I guess in their defense(they aren't my buddies; I don't paddle with them, so don't worry about me being offended! I'm not), they would recommend a Tempest or a Necky Eliza over a Suka, because their typical clientele ISN'T a serious paddler, and has no intention of becoming one. So for them, when considering their typical customer, the Suka does seem like too "serious" of a boat for a beginner. It isn't often one sees a sea kayak around here. Aren't you glad you live in a more paddling-oriented area?!
Anyway, the whole point of my bringing this up is that you can't trust what someone else says about what will work for you. And I think telling a newbie that they should just trust what a experienced paddler tells them they should be paddling is bad advice. Listen to their advice, and then try out those boats yourself!
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Salespeople versus instructor/coach|
Posted by: Celia on Sep-06-13 8:10 AM (EST)
A lot of what you mention above wanders into the territory of what a decent instructor would be covering, especially things like re-entry techniques and how to understand/use stability changes. You have an athletic background so were able to understand much of this intuitively, and even better had the confidence to go with your instincts.
But the folks who gave you this dreadful advice were probably doing the right thing as salespeople based on the numbers. As you say, the majority of the people who walked into the store would have likely been been happier long term with a more rec'y boat. This generates overall good ratings for the business, and everyone still has a job to pay the rent and it is a good thing.
I get lambasted on this board for recommending that people spend their money first on basic lessons, but your story is why. Had you listened to their advice, you would probably have realized you had spent a bunch of money on a boat you weren't totally happy with about 30 minutes into your first time of serious training.
I don't know where you can get skills work given your description of your area, but when that time comes I suggest that you check out the web sites of a couple of organizations to see if there is a coach listed near you. The people who were trying to sell you the boat don't seem to be a match for your more aggressive goals. The ACA or the Canadian guides organization may have someone within reach. "Within reach" may mean an overnight stay somewhere, probably next spring, but it'd be worth it to get a couple of days of the right work.
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Look for winter pool sessions|
Posted by: Celia on Sep-06-13 8:55 AM (EST)
You will want to get goggle or goggles/nose clip to keep the chlorine from bothering your eyes and stinging when it comes up your nose, unless you have a very high tolerance for that. But you should check for winter pool sessions, especially for the rolling. Warm water is a nice way to start, and starting this work in the winter leaves you ready to go right out of the gate come spring.
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Posted by: angstrom on Sep-06-13 9:34 AM (EST)
A lot of well-meaning people forget that there can be huge differences in "beginner" attitudes and ability.
In my case, I was a kayak beginner, but had a lot of time on Sunfish and sailboards and other wet tippy things in wind and waves, plus being very comfortable in the water. I started with a couple of sea kayak classes, and my "beginner boat" was an Avocet.
For somebody with a different background and goals, that approach could have been scary, frustrating, dangerous, or all of the above.
It's not just water experience that makes a difference. Folks who have good balance and coordination from other activities have a head start. Attitude and goals are also a huge part of it -- do you want to sneak up on wildlife in ponds, or surf breakers? Both are fine, but take you down very different paths. Good advice for one would be bad for the other.
Most folks that give advice mean well, but tend to be biased by their own experience.
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Posted by: KatieD on Sep-06-13 10:04 AM (EST)
Exactly, I really identify with all that.
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OK, Katie, it may be that you have |
Posted by: g2d on Sep-06-13 10:41 AM (EST)
more difficulty spotting experienced paddlers than you do trying out boats. Don't assume the sales people are "experienced" in any useful way. I can squeeze info out of such people, but I have to use oblique or even trick questions.
Remember that I said I *can't* try out boats without buying and outfitting them. That's how I learned I did not have to demo boats, as long as I could assess expert opinion and judge hull characteristics.
You may be better at demoing boats than most, but I still insist, most newbies are not capable of fully assessing boats in a demo session. They don't have the knowledge, and they don't have the feel.
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Posted by: KatieD on Sep-06-13 11:18 AM (EST)
-- Last Updated: Sep-06-13 12:28 PM EST --
I don't know the sales people well at all, and I've never paddled with them, so they may not be "experienced" by your standards. But they do have some paddle certification(2 levels Paddle Canada), and over 20 years of paddle experience(limited to large lakes and slower rivers..no oceans near us!). Compared to me they are experienced ha ha! Interestingly, if you google "current designs suka not for beginners" you'll come up with a number of hits mentioning this, including at least one outfitter websites categorizing it as a boat for the seasoned intermediate or intermediate to advanced paddlers. Ha! Just goes to show, that perception is out there, no matter how wrong it is.
If you CAN'T demo a boat before buying, that is one thing. But I wouldn't recommend it as a practice for the majority. Anything I read, anywhere, from paddle magazines, paddlers on here, etc., recommends a demo. And I experienced the benefits myself. It may not tell one everything about the boat, but it is a great starting point when combined with the stats and others experience with it. Are you really disagreeing with that, or am I misunderstanding you? (directed at g2d)
Sorry, I'm not trying to beat a dead horse...I can understand if you are saying that you, personally, haven't needed to demo anything to pick a great kayak. But is that really good advice for the average paddler?
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I'm not sure he's saying that|
Posted by: slushpaddler on Sep-06-13 3:40 PM (EST)
Personally, I'd say if the kayak is available to sit in, end you don't consider the effort an unreasonable expense - then why not? I think all G2D is trying to say is not to put too much weight on demos, because they're only going to provide limited feedback. People toss out the advice to get a demo for various reasons (often when someone is considering buying sight unseen), when it should be understood that a demo alone won't tell you all you need to know.
If I were considering buying a boat sight unseen, and I had the chance to demo it, I would do so.
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Yes, I think demos are an overvalued |
Posted by: g2d on Sep-06-13 11:00 PM (EST)
idea. I've seen new pnetters paralyzed by the purchase process because they couldn't demo everything they thought they should consider. There are other ways of making the decision and coming out right.
But for kayaks, fit is less modifiable than it is in canoes. At least being able to sit in a kayak on solid ground is important. But any here who follow boatertalk know that if a boatertalker has a question about fit, capacity, *anything* about a whitewater kayak, lots of advice is available from paddlers of similar size. I assume such advice might be available on sea kayak websites.
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see katie's last paragraph|
Posted by: slushpaddler on Sep-05-13 5:42 PM (EST)
Without challenging what you said it's easy to imagine how different styles, condition preferences, heck - different understanding of terms or phrases, such as "this hull is loose" can vary between people. Then we get into the physical differences.
I'd agree that a given group of experienced paddlers should generally concur on a boat, but it's been my experience that they may vary a bit.
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You got a boat you're happy with|
Posted by: pikabike on Sep-06-13 1:14 PM (EST)
That's the important thing. Whether you change your mind about it several years from now is irrelevant, as long as you just (to paraphrase ScupperFrank) GO PADDLE!
I've bought boats that I demoed first and thought were OK because I didn't know any better. It's not that they were bad; I just hadn't paddled many before. After I demoed and rented many more, I felt comfortable buying without trying, and that worked out fine in a couple of cases. In another case, the boat was fine unloaded but turned out to be too hard to edge when loaded. If you really want to make sure of what you buy, you'd have to not only demo but rent for at least a few days, and then paddle it in different conditions and both loaded and unloaded. That's a tall order for many people, when even a short demo in a sea kayak might be hard to come by.
Now you've bought it, don't get mired down in what-ifs. Concentrate on learning on the water instead. It's a lot more fun than perpetually shopping, anyway.
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Posted by: angstrom on Sep-06-13 2:21 PM (EST)
So true. Some boats that are fun in waves -- and that would be good for building skills -- are unimpressive on flat water. A beginner probably doesn't know what to look for, or have the skills to push the boat hard.
I'll be the first to say that my beloved Avocet is not really happy in calm conditions. She's not fast, she doesn't track well, and she's not very responsive unless you really work the edges and leans. But put some waves under her keel and she perks right up, delighted at the opportunity to play.
Or am I just projecting a bit....? ;-)
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Had to look...|
Posted by: Celia on Sep-06-13 2:29 PM (EST)
The whole bit in the inner thread about the Suka being cited as a more advanced paddler's boat caused me to look over CD's catalog. I wanted to see how the manufacturer presented it. Even though I am often not a fan of kayak makers' descriptions, CD tends to do a pretty good job.
I can see the potential for confusion, especially for someone new to kayaking.
In general CD, as well as many other manufacturers, talk in extremely broad terms about stability and performance. What you end up getting is a comparison of primary stability for rec boats to transitional boats to full out sea kayaks all in a single flow.
So once someone has decided to start at the sea kayak level, their research is going to turn up a ton of references comparing a sea kayak to a boat that isn't designed to support open water skills to start with. In terms of what the boat is designed to do - rolling, handling waves - any sea kayak is going to be more advanced than a basic rec boat. And it will have lesser primary stability.
What most of these conversations don't include is that makes a boat safer in waves than something like a pumpkinseed boat. And unfortunately a new paddler is unlikely to be aware of that.
I found a few other outfitters that had adopted the same habit. But none of them were coastal or Great Lakes outfitters who might have nothing but sea kayaks to start with. So unless someone understands the relationship between boat design and intended use, not usually true for a brand new paddler, figuring out what advanced really means in terms of likely comfort in a boat can be hard.
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We do ""wear"" the kayak around us|
Posted by: willi_h2o on Sep-06-13 8:32 PM (EST)
Regardless of what loose or tight and or long or short
mean to various size people in their kayak,
it is truly a fit issue, a literal wearing of the boat,
around our bodies while on the water.
People ""try on"" every other piece of gear they own
like a pair of hiking shoes, a trail backpack, or a
new mountain bike, road race bike, etc., etc.
"Trying On" a kayak just makes good sense before purchase
Taking a beginner kayak class before purchasing will
enhance the buying experience to enable a "solid good fit"
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We've had some fine info passed on|
Posted by: shirlann on Sep-08-13 10:39 PM (EST)
regarding this subject and it's still important to "try" it out. At least for fit. One wouldn't recommend a 21" wide kayak for a 300# person as they might just take you up on it and buy one only to find it may be too small. We are not all "advanced", but most know from personal experience if something will at least fit our body. One doesn't need to be a 'rocket scientist' or have a PHD to figure that out.
A neighbor had a Walden 12' kayak for sale, in great shape, and at a decent price. I am short, but when I even just sat in it, I knew it would never do as the depth of the boat hardly gave me room to move my legs and the edge of the material was sharp, I just said, "Sorry, it's not for me". Another gal, from our 'ladies' group, and taller than I am loved the fit and way it handled. Different fits for different folks!
KATIE, may you, and all the other 'newbies' have many fun hours in your boats. I've enjoyed many different kayaks over the last 18 years and as I get older, those I had early on were enjoyed until I went to the next. With your perception, you'll do well. ENJOY!!
Experience is still the best teacher!
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I'm With Ya|
Posted by: Kudzu on Sep-09-13 6:02 PM (EST)
I would never buy a kayak before trying it. I met some folks who built kayaks that they didn't like. I'm sure some people who love building stuff would be OK with that. It would hurt me to the bone to spend hours and hours building a boat that sucked.
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Posted by: richardp on Sep-10-13 11:35 AM (EST)
In an ideal world, yest a test paddle is great. But if you buy a boat off of C.L. and the owner is 60 minutes away from any water it may not be an option. Reading reviews and asking opinions are just as important as a test paddle. I bought my kevlar canoe based on the above. Because of my research on canoe design and opinions gathered I knew how the boat would handle. Again, a test is great, but don't pass up a good buy because you cannot test it.
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Posted by: holmes375 on Sep-10-13 7:53 PM (EST)
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