Went to lake and found 20 plus kayaks in cove we planned to launch in. My wife and I were screwing around rolling and self rescue playing. Many of these boats were entry level boats with beginner skills paddlers. We were talking with people and were showing some interested paddlers some self and assisted rescues.
I did a wet exit, emptied to boat before rolling it over and got back into the boat, no big deal. A very athletic 20 something struggled to empty his boat and roll it over, I tried to show him, but there remained at least 4 inches of water in the boat after flipping. We went into shallow water and attempted to lift from front and rear ends (no front bulkhead) and the water would not fully drain and left at least 4 inches in the boat.
I had my Valley Avocet, WS Zephyr, and Necky Manatou, The Avocet and Zephyr had less than a half inch after lifting and flipping, the Manatou had about an inch of water. A WS Pungo had about 3 inches of water. The boats with only 1 or no bulkheads had at least 4 inches of water on board after flipping, one boat (Waterquest) actually sank just under water level with its foam flotation blocks being little to no help with buoyancy.
So from here on I will consider any boat that cannot be drained (without the aid of a pump) a rec boat.
In the spirit of testing, also present on the medium textured dry sandy beach (think sand box sand) were pneumatic tire and wide plastic tire C-Tugs, with similar loads both sucked about equally, the pneumatic tire carrier sank into the sand, the wide plastic wheel piled up sand in front of the wheels making both about equally hard to pull.
Fun day had by all.
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Posted by: g2d on Aug-31-13 11:05 PM (EST)
I mention that because your observations do not seem to be advice, suggestions, or general help.
Well, sprint kayaks and canoes|
Posted by: Kocho on Sep-01-13 1:10 PM (EST)
And Greenland and other similar style skin on frame boats also keep a lot of water in after flipping them over. Same for WW boats. Probably not as much as a poorly designed (for drainage) rec boat's cockpit but on the water self rescue is darn near impossible with these without a lot of added flotation and even then there is a ton of water to pump after you get in...
You are not making too much sense|
Posted by: JackL on Sep-01-13 1:34 PM (EST)
I'll quote you "So from here on I will consider any boat that cannot be drained (without the aid of a pump) a rec boat."
Posted by: celia on Sep-01-13 2:39 PM (EST)
All of our sea kayaks lose most of their water - enuff to be fine to paddle - via a flip by the swimmer. If more cmes during reentry, that often requires a pump. But depending on condtions and reentry technique , l don't always need to pump more out.
You would qualify|
Posted by: trvlrerik on Sep-01-13 3:25 PM (EST)
QCC kayaks I have lifted and flipped drain out very well
Disagree with the OP's definition|
Posted by: Glenn_MacGrady on Sep-02-13 12:43 PM (EST)
The OP is essentially defining as a "rec kayak" any kayak that has no bulkheads or only one bulkhead. Logically, less-than-two-bulkheadedness can be a general feature of a rec kayak without defining the class of rec kayaks. Stated differently, kayaks other than rec kayaks can have less than two bulkheads.
And here's what's "silly"|
Posted by: Glenn_MacGrady on Sep-02-13 1:01 PM (EST)
Not Jack, not Celia, but their meaningless quibble.
Thank you Glen|
Posted by: JackL on Sep-02-13 6:07 PM (EST)
that is exactly the point I was trying to make.
didn't mean to open up the worm can|
Posted by: trvlrerik on Sep-02-13 9:50 PM (EST)
To clarify: wet exit, lifted front of boat to drain water and rolled back over in relatively calm water. There was water present in the boat after being rolled and prior to re-entry. It is the amount of water left inside of the boat making the distinction.
Posted by: kayamedic on Sep-02-13 11:11 PM (EST)
rec boat mind set|
Posted by: Jaybabina on Sep-03-13 7:48 AM (EST)
Posted by: adbass on Sep-03-13 9:31 AM (EST)
I don't think one can say very much about a person and their mental attitudes, etc., from how easily their kayak may be drained of water. And after thinking about it, I'm sure you will agree.
There is some experience here....|
Posted by: Jaybabina on Sep-03-13 12:04 PM (EST)
"I don't think one can say very much about a person and their mental attitudes, etc., from how easily their kayak may be drained of water. And after thinking about it, I'm sure you will agree".
Posted by: adbass on Sep-03-13 12:32 PM (EST)
might not an experienced and knowledgeable kayaker, someone familiar with rescues and safety issues, take out a recreational kayak on a local pond? You know, just for a lark; perhaps it fits nicely in the back of his truck.
Look at the paddler|
Posted by: kayamedic on Sep-03-13 12:43 PM (EST)
the novice is likely to have it somewhere on the back deck. The accomplished paddler have it on.
Reminds Me of an Encounter|
Posted by: Kudzu on Sep-03-13 4:36 PM (EST)
My buddies and I were putting in at a fairly secluded spot some years back. Another guy and some of his family were also getting ready to launch. This guy wanted to talk about his kayak so I was polite and listened. Did he talk about how well it tracked? Turned? Rolled? Edged? How fast it was? How well it surfed? Naw. None of the above. He went on and on and on about how much stuff he could get in it. I don't care what boat he paddled, he was a 'recreational' paddler. If that makes me a snob then I guess I'm a snob.
maybe he presumed you had a depth of |
Posted by: slushpaddler on Sep-05-13 1:46 PM (EST)
knowledge about his kayak, and overestimated you. Maybe he thought all of those characteristics should be apparent to you as an experienced kayaker.
You're Reachin' Slush|
Posted by: Kudzu on Sep-05-13 5:11 PM (EST)
By your logic I would also know how much his boat could hold. He was going on and on about capacity because that's what he values. The guy was 95% camper and 5% boater. Not that there's anything wrong with that. It's just not me. Some folks drive little sports cars and others drive vans.
I got it.|
Posted by: slushpaddler on Sep-05-13 5:43 PM (EST)
...and you were there, I wasn't. Plus I imagine the boat was empty at the time!
Posted by: jonsprag1 on Sep-06-13 8:27 PM (EST)
can be quite important if you like to go on multi-day trips--
Posted by: slushpaddler on Sep-04-13 11:14 AM (EST)
Posted by: davejjj on Sep-04-13 10:36 PM (EST)
A rec kayak is a rec kayak when you look at it and you say "Hey, that's a rec kayak." No flipping or measuring water levels is necessary. You look and you say "Oh, such a nice cup holder!" and then you say "Oh my, and no thigh braces!" and "Golly, no flotation in the front except maybe a little foam block" and "Wow, such a big cockpit" and "Ah, such a nice wide stable boat."
I don't know about everyone else,|
Posted by: deuce on Sep-05-13 9:55 AM (EST)
but I find paddling very recreational. If I didn't I wouldn't invest in all that stuff. I understand the spirit of the argument of course, but I wish we could come up with a better term for the aforementioned goobers other than rec boater, because IMO that's not a moniker that deserves to become a pejorative. My daughter is getting a Dagger Zydeco for her eleventh birthday. That's a rec boat fo sho, but it's a darned good one. I'll equip it with floatation and enlist the help of buddies (I'm what my yakking friends affectionately call an SOB; scruffy open boater) to teach her good technique, and she's worn NRS Vistas since she was out of the little kid PFDs. There's a good chance she'll quickly progress past the "rec paddler" stage, but if she doesn't that's fine. She'll be with me on trips making me smile.
Posted by: slushpaddler on Sep-05-13 1:44 PM (EST)
How about we identify what makes them goobers, or whatever else you want to call them.
Posted by: deuce on Sep-05-13 2:28 PM (EST)
In my mind river dork and goober are interchangeable terms. He/she already knows everything, doesn't "need" a PFD even after being rescued several times, drinks to rowdy excess, endangers others' safety and adversely impacts their paddling enjoyment with their behavior, etc.
I like river dork|
Posted by: slushpaddler on Sep-05-13 5:44 PM (EST)
I know people like that. River Dork sounds good.
River Dork it is! Henceforth|
Posted by: deuce on Sep-06-13 9:27 AM (EST)
I'll use RD. Not So Little Deuce (formerly Little Deuce) and I were paddling around last night and she pestered me for hints regarding her birthday present. I have a very hard time telling her no, but I managed to keep the hints vague enough that she didn't ferret out the truth.
The visual clues are blatant.......|
Posted by: willi_h2o on Sep-06-13 11:34 PM (EST)
Posted by: Kudzu on Sep-07-13 5:29 AM (EST)
This thread could be misunderstood|
Posted by: rpg51 on Sep-07-13 9:45 AM (EST)
Posted by: Kudzu on Sep-08-13 4:58 AM (EST)
In the bicycle world you have better description. Racing bikes; mountain bikes; beach cruisers; etc. Someone high up in the kayak industry came up with the awful catch-all word "recreational" and no one had the clout to knock it down.