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  P&H Aries--Very Cool Boat!!!
  Posted by: bowler1 on Apr-21-13 8:40 AM (EST)
   Category: unassigned 

I had previously asked a question about this boat here on pnet and decided to pull the trigger and get one. I did not get too many responses to my question and found little information online in the way of reviews so I am going to provide my thoughts about the boat and its performance.

I found a great deal on it at the River Connection in Hyde Park, NY. They were having a closeout on the models without the day hatch. It was too good of a price to pass up.

I was looking for a more playful boat for paddling in the surf, and need a boat that can accommodate a 200 pound paddler. Most of the 16 foot boats are aimed at lighter paddlers. I had also heard a lot of good things about the Aries and Delphin.

I got the boat out in the surf for the first time last weekend in the Triangle down at Tybee Island—a great testing ground for such a boat.

In all it is a near boat and a blast to paddle. I have owned a lot of boats, but have never paddled one quite like this. It is drastically different from any sea kayak I have paddled. I think the boat is a keeper. It is super maneuverable, very playful, a great surfer, easy roller and surprisingly fast for its length. It is a fun boat that I would consider to be almost radically different from other sea kayaks. Probably is not a good general purpose boat, but is a lot of fun for playing.

The fit of the boat is nice and feels somewhat between a Romany and an Explorer in fit. I usually paddle an Explorer and the Romany is too small for me with the stock seat. I found the Aires to be a nice fit, but I had to take off the hip pads which I felt made the boat way too tight at the hips.

The stern feels somewhat like the stern on a slicey whitewater boat. When you get it to unlock it feels almost as if it were slicing under the surface of the water, allowing the boat to spin 90 degrees in an instant, even when sitting stationary you can spin it. Very cool…and very different. I found this to be useful in the surf. When paddling out into oncoming waves, I was able to adjust my course accordingly to hit the shoulder of the oncoming waves and avoid the breaking portion of the wave. More significantly though, it allowed me to spin the boat around to catch an oncoming wave, and to do so with minimal effort. I find that I generally expend a large amount of my energy in the surf attempting to quickly turn my boat to catch on oncoming wave or to avoid getting hit sideways by an oncoming breaker. Being able to do so much more quickly and effortlessly is a welcome change.

On the other hand, this handling characteristic is a little quirky and took some getting used to. I still have not gotten the feel for when it will break loose. It seems that in dynamic water it will break loose instantly. In flat water it seems to hesitate in breaking loose and then suddenly just skid out sharply. I have not been able to figure that one out yet. I also found myself on a couple of occasions getting side surfed and then having the stern slide out and turn me back towards the sea such that I was getting back surfed. That was a little different and I have never had that happen before.

The high volume and high rocker bow is a great attribute in the surf. I found that it rode up and over oncoming waves or punched through them at top of the waves thus preventing you from getting pummeled and back-surfed by oncoming breakers. It also helped to prevent the bow from purling. In the one or two instances where it did start to purl I was able to lean my weight back and have the bow quickly re-surface.

Surfing the boat was a blast. It picked up waves pretty easily and surfed them very fast due probably to the flat hull. I also found it was the easiest boat I have paddled to avoid a broach by straightening the boat out on the wave, as long as you were reasonably high on the wave. Pulling a boat out of a pending broach is usually pretty difficult. I also was able on one occasion to change direction completely on the face of the wave from carving to the right to carving to the left. I was not able to repeat this but think it was largely due to changing edges. I will have to work to be able to repeat this. I have never had that happen before with a sea kayak. I also found that the boat would carve easily off the face of a wave rather than broaching. As a result I rarely got side-surfed.

The stability profile of the boat is different from other boats as well. It has high primary stability and good secondary, but I found the secondary to kick in pretty quickly and then give out pretty quickly as well when the boat is edged over farther. I am used to edging boats very deeply and aggressively. I found this boat requires more subtle and shallower edging. I initially found myself edging the boat too deeply and past the boat’s secondary stability. The stability profile of the boat was not necessarily to my liking, but it was effective in the surf and in clapotis. I only had to roll once and it was due to a rather stupid mistake. Rolling the boat is also very easy, partially due to the nice snug fit.

Tracking and speed of the boat was not too bad. It actually felt quite fast for its length and did not feel like it was pushing a big bow wave like a Romany does. In textured water the boat was very playful and fun and seemed to accelerate over small choppy oncoming waves while we were paddling out to the sandbar. After getting used to the boat I was able to maintain any course relative to the wind without a problem; although the winds were mild. My first time paddling the boat on the James River on a windy choppy day produced different results where the boat was all over the place for me, but I think it was largely due to not being used to the very unique characteristics of this boat. That being said though, this would not be my choice for a long open water crossing on a windy day (but that would seem to go without saying).

Gear storage (as you may have seen in one of my previous posts) was slightly problematic given the lack of a day hatch. The wide and flat rear hatch compartment allowed loose items to shift from side to side when edging which slightly upset stability on edge. As others have pointed out I can remedy this by inserting an inflated paddle float or floatation bag to secure items in place. A minor inconvenience that I can overcome.

Overall—a really cool boat for playing in rough water, fun and capable, super maneuverable and a keeper in my opinion.

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Messages in this Topic


  Sounds like a cool boat...
  Posted by: johnysmoke on Apr-21-13 3:05 PM (EST)
Have fun. I've been enjoying a Delphin for the past year, and an Aries is on my wish list...
  Posted by: wavespinner on Apr-22-13 10:05 AM (EST)
I greatly enjoy my Delphin and I think you'll find that design "quirks" become assets, once you adapt. There may be one modification you will consider, depending upon how the Aries is outfitted. My Delphin came with the plastic slider footpegs, not the bulkhead (found in the Surf edition). They tend to jump the track with strong foot thrusts and I'm evaluating replacements.
  Posted by: bowler1 on Apr-22-13 10:24 AM (EST)
I agree that the quirks can become assets. I am seeing that already. I also strongly believe this boat takes some getting used to and has a bit of a learning curve. I usually paddle an explorer in rough water. Its a very neutral boat. The Aries is anything but neutral. I have owned many many kayaks and am pretty quick to get the feel for a new boat. This one is taking longer to get used to but I am liking it more and more. I have to admit that I really didn't like it the first time I paddled it.

Also agree on the foot pegs. They are comfortable but fleet and my feetslide on them a bit. I prefer yYakima foot braces.
  In the interest of full disclosure
  Posted by: wavespinner on Apr-22-13 12:26 PM (EST)
I informed P&H of my concerns. They acknowledged that the plastic sliders with the black control rods are a little too flexible and shipped me replacements.
  On the Delphin I had red ...
  Posted by: Kocho on Apr-22-13 1:26 PM (EST)
... Twist handles for the foot pegs. I never had an issue with the pedals coming off and in fact thought they felt quite stable. I did a lot of whitewater and river surfing in mine as well as pool rolling - not an issue at all. The only "modification" I found very useful was to glue 1/4" minicell padding on the foot pegs - very comfy for barefoot use and slippage of the feet is minimized too.

I must admit, for my large feet the foot pegs were a bit too small, but still a lot better than the tiny Yakima on some other boats...
  Posted by: wavespinner on Apr-22-13 1:37 PM (EST)
I'm giving them a fair trial before going in a different direction.
  had to modify my foot peg slilders
  Posted by: jcbikeski on Apr-22-13 6:54 PM (EST)
I too had them derail. I finally put a zip tie around the peg slider and the part it slides on which seemed to help.
  Aries vs. Island Expedition
  Posted by: Jbead on Apr-22-13 10:57 AM (EST)

I know you didn't paddle the Expedition for long, but how would you say the two compare? Was going to send you an email, but others may benefit from your further comments.

Hope to get on the water soon.

  Comfortable Cruising Speed?
  Posted by: seadart on Apr-22-13 5:50 PM (EST)
Have you ever measured the cruising speed in the boat?
Interested how it changes in head wind, tail wind, waves vs flatwater. Obviously not a racing boat, but it looks like it might plow a bit of water.
  Posted by: bowler1 on Apr-22-13 6:46 PM (EST)
I have not measured the cruising speed. Given that speed is not much of an issue for me with a playboat I did not bother to take my GPS out with me...but that's a good question. I will try to do it sometime just to see.

From a purely subjective point of view it did not feel significantly slower than my Explorer, yet paddled with greater efficiency at lower speeds due to the lower wetted surface area--just as you would expect. While I did not try to push it very fast, it did not have the noticeable and visible bow wave of a Romany. I find the Romany creates a bow wave that you can see and even hear being pushed along in front of the boat. I did not notice this boat doing that. Also the Romany and similar boats very noticeably "hit the wall" at about 5 mph. While I don't know how fast I was paddling the boat I did not feel as if I had hit the wall as with a Romany or Avocet. The boat felt efficient and I did not feel like I was plowing through the water like with most shorter boats.

To address Jamie's question about how this boat compares to the Island Expedition--that's actually a great question. For those of you who are not familiar with that boat it too is extremely unique and has an incredibly loose stern which makes the boat unbelievably maneuverable for an 18 footer. It is a unique design with a very low volume stern that skids out easily.

The Aries is similar to the Island in that it is highly maneuverable and has a loose stern, but those are the only similarities.

I found the Island to feel fairly conventional in terms of its stability profile and overall feel on the water (when going straight). The Aries is much different from any other boat. It's stability profile is unique, given its flat bottom. Perhaps it is more like a cross between a sea kayak and a whitewater boat with a planning hull in terms of its stability. The Aries also has a tremendous amount of rocker at the bow which makes the bow very loose.

The Aries will turn MUCH sharper than the Island. Unlike the Island the Aries will turn where you want it to go and not "oversteer." I found the Island would just keep turning long after you wanted it to stop. The Aries is not like that. On the other hand the precise instant that the stern will break loose on the Aries is less predictable. I am not saying that it doesn't start to turn quickly, but rather that it will suddenly start to turn MUCH more quickly once the stern is completely unlocked. When this happens it spins around at an accelerating speed. On flat water it is almost disconcerting at first and caused me to place a light brace above the surface of the water on the outside of the turn--it turned that fast. In the surf this turning felt more natural. I think the boat feels more at home in that environment.

Additionally, when the stern on the Aries does break loose it really does feel like it is slicing under the surface of the water. I asked my paddling partner to watch and he did say that water was up very close to the top of the deck in the stern when it was turning. It is an odd feeling.

Also, the Aries will actually spin in place with a good sweep, just like a whitewater boat will do. Pretty much all sea kayaks need some forward momentum to turn. Even the most maneuverable ones will largely carve a turn with some stern skidding and not truly spin in place. Not so with the Aries. Particularly if you time your sweep when the boat is on top of a wave or swell the boat will spin around 90 degrees which is pretty cool.


  Posted by: bowler1 on Apr-22-13 7:03 PM (EST)
Something I did not address in my other posts which I probably should have is that I am really impressed with P&H as a company. The quality of this boat and the one other P&H boat I had which was a very old Bahiya were both outstanding. Both had a nice and neat build, and seemed quite strong. The Bahiya was apparently strong but was super light still as well. The Aries is not so light. I don't know the measured weight but it feels about as heavy as my 62 pound Explorer. It's solid though for sure.

I also like P&H's forward thinking. The design of the Cetus impressed me as being rather unconventional and now the Aries is quite a bit more unconventional. Details like the forward day hatch and a quality seating arrangement are pretty nice as well. Frankly I also like the oval Kayaksport rear hatches. Of course that is a matter of preference, but I prefer kayaksport hatches over Valley hatches.

One characteristic I have noticed with both the Cetus and Aries is that they have high primary stability and secondary stability that kicks in fairly early. As such they feel to me like they don't need to be edged as much to turn. That is something that I am not used to and I am not sure that I like since I like to edge boats deeply; however, I think it will appeal to a wider range of paddlers and that they have satisfied the market's demand in this regard.

  What's so unconventional?
  Posted by: bowrudder on Apr-22-13 8:21 PM (EST)
I look at the pictures and scratch my head. It looks like a sea kayak.
  How is the Aries Unconventional?
  Posted by: old_user on Apr-23-13 11:37 AM (EST)
Well that’s a fair question I guess.

I would say that the handling, design, and intended niche are all unique. First my comments on handling are comparing it to the boats I have owned or paddled. For the purposes of perspective this includes several shorter boats such as the Romany, Romany Surf, Avocet, Chatham 16, Nordkapp LV and Dagger Meridian (and a slew of longer ones--Explorer, Greenlander Pro, Bahiya, Legend and others.). I have not owned or paddled a Pintail or Anas Acuta which may be the only boats to compare to the maneuverability of the Aries. I also have not owned a Cetus but did paddle one once and I thought it too had a little bit different stability profile.

The Aries is much more maneuverable than anything I have paddled and turns differently than most sea kayaks in that the boat will actually spin, also is the somewhat odd characteristic of the “slicey” stern. Not conventional for a sea kayak. The stability profile is also quite different. If you paddled one then you will likely agree that the boat is “unconventional.” It is unlike any other sea kayak I have paddled.

As to the niche of the boat—I believe this boat is really aimed specifically at play and not to be good at both play and touring like many of the 16 footers out there. That is somewhat unique and perhaps unconventional. Most sea kayaks are really touring boats that we play in, rather than boats aimed at playing. My understanding is that they tried to incorporate some characteristics of a whitewater boat into a sea kayak. I think that they really aimed to create a maneuverable and playful boat and were not concerned about tracking or load carrying, etc. which would be important considerations for an all-around boat, which this boat probably is not.

Last are the differences in design. The boat has hard chines at the bow and stern and a rounded chine in the middle along with a very flat bottom. The chines are fairly unique in this regard and that combined with the flat bottom probably explain the stability profile differences. The boat has extreme rocker at the bow which is very out of proportion to the rocker at the stern, and the cockpit is set back fairly far.

I would describe it as being fairly unconventional. Perhaps unique is a better word—either way though the boat is quite different.

  I would add
  Posted by: wavespinner on Apr-24-13 8:57 AM (EST)
It has whitewater outfitting from their Pyranha line, creating a solid bond with the paddler. I'd like to have that in all my sea kayaks.
  Aries/Delphin unconventionality
  Posted by: NateHanson on Apr-23-13 3:27 PM (EST)
I'd agree with Matt that the Aries and Delphin are quite "unconventional" in the world of sea kayaks. Seeing a picture of one may not tell you much, but look at one in person, and paddle one, and I think you'll agree. Concave sections under the bow, the flat stern sections, and the volume distribution are unusual. The way it handles is unique enough that I don't generally teach in it, because it doesn't provide a good model of what students are trying to achieve with their conventional boats. It skids sideways across eddylines like a ww boat, rather than tracking across the way other sea kayaks do. And the loose stern makes it respond differently to some strokes.

Not the perfect boat for everything, but I think it the aries and delphin are great additions to the kayak designs that are available.
  Thanks Matt
  Posted by: Jbead on Apr-23-13 11:44 AM (EST)
great insight as usual.
  paddled some ww with Marshall
  Posted by: daggermat on Apr-23-13 2:18 PM (EST)
who owns 'the river connection', and I gotta' say the guy is smooth and very competent. Nice to see you gave him some business, and I'd recommend any yakkers, sea/ww/whatever, looking for experience behind the sale and good answers to any questions to look him up. He's on this forum from time to time.
  Hey Matt!
  Posted by: OCD_Yakker on Apr-23-13 2:32 PM (EST)
You and I go a ways back - as we seem to share taste in boats and often get the same ones!! (literally)

In this case - I actually just got the "other" P&H Aries that Marshall had for sale...yea, the all-yellow with white keelstrip/trim - so thanks for leaving me this one!! Still haven't picked it up from Marshall yet (waiting till I move to my new place) so am loving this writeup and thread!

It sounds as if this boat shares characteristics with the Tiderace Xtra and it's flat midsectioned hull, hard chines, etc etc. Will be fun to learn more about it and will pick it up in the next 10 days or so.

Paddle on, Matt!

  Posted by: bowler1 on Apr-23-13 6:15 PM (EST)

yeah that's kind of funny. Glad you are getting the boat. I would love to hear your thoughts when you pick it up. I really think you will find it to be radically different from anything you have paddled. You may not like it at first--I didn't. It takes some getting used to in order to appreciate its attributes.

I have actually hear good things about the TR Xtra. When I was down at Tybee some folks down there were saying very positive things about it and described it as Tide Race's best design so far. I would imagine that may be one of the few boats that might compete with the Aries for a playboat, but I have never paddled one.

   "I think the boat is a keeper."
  Posted by: wilsoj2 on Apr-24-13 5:34 PM (EST)
Hi Matt,

Are you finally going to break down and maintain a quiver of boats? The Aires is niche boat, so you should be keeping your current Explorer.

I've heard very good things of the Aires and Delphin but have yet had the chance to play in either. I'm curious how they might compare to the new Valley Gemini boats.

BTW, you really do owe it to yourself to play in a Pintail sometime. It is the sweetest boat I've paddled. It is a niche boat, and I don't plan on owning one, but I wouldn't turn one down ;-)
  Delphin is good, I hear Aries is great;)
  Posted by: Kocho on Apr-24-13 5:52 PM (EST)
-- Last Updated: Apr-24-13 5:58 PM EST --

The Delphin is really very different from a regular sea kayak. You don't feel its true strengths until you paddle it in moving water, preferably strong currents or surf.

Where "conventional" kayaks all more or less behave the same, the Delphin is I think unique, even compared to a Gemini or others, in that it has flat bottom at the stern and, effectively at the bow. What this means is that it is not affected by currents like these other sharp or V shaped bottom boats are. I used mine pretty much exclusively in white water on the Potomac, the section below Great Falls called Mather Gorge. See this for instance:

I can just peel out from an eddy and go where I want. With a boat of the same length and lots of rocker, like the WS Zephyr 15.5, the bow is immediately caught by the current and by the time the rest of the boat is out of the eddy, the bow is swept downstream. Not so with the Delphin - lean a bit back, keep it flat, and it slides over the current, "planing" out over the eddy line and into the main current. Once there, give it a bit of edge and it tracks straight for a cross-ferry and goes where you want it. It behaves like a planing hull white water boat. It has good primary stability and that allows you to focus on your paddling rather than bother with balance.

Yet, because of the swede form, despite the square-ish bottom, it has decent top end speed to attain upriver or catch waves. Not fast for cruising and glide is not good, but is just fine to keep-up with casual paddling groups or to get to play spots.

I hear the Aries is just like that, except it is a bit livelier being stiffer and a few pounds lighter. Have not paddled it so can't compare. I don't think there is another boat that works quite like the Aries/Delphin (whether that's good for one's needs I'm not making a judgement here).

Edit: forgot to mention, that despite the short length, it can actually haul quite a bit of stuff - today I went out with my newly acquired Nordkapp RM and was really surprised that my kayak cart won't fit in the rear compartment due to the pinched bottom shape of the Nordkapp's hull. It fits (even with larger wheels) in the Delphin and even fits behind the seat in my WW kayak (Dagger Axiom 8.5) so this is a really small cart... It did fit in the front, barely on the Nordy... So, the square hull of the Delphin/Aries actually has good volume for loading compared to its length end other boats that had pinched ends...

  A bit of perspective...
  Posted by: on Apr-25-13 7:11 PM (EST)
-- Last Updated: Apr-25-13 8:01 PM EST --

I have only paddled the Delphin 150 & 155, while I agree they're very good play boats I don't believe they re-wrote the what's possible in a seakayak book. The same probably holds true for the FG model. Both test paddles were last year & many of us are a different paddler a year later, so maybe I'd think a bit differently now, but I doubt it. They do have some unique handling characteristics as stated by others, but IMO, for me, they weren't special enough for me to go away from a WS Zephyr,(which is a pretty exceptional playboat IMO). I will tell you that after one test paddle in a Sterling Reflection, I was more than impressed enough to buy it. It's unfortunate these boats aren't more available. And yes, for the record, Sterilng's Reflection has rewritten the what's possible in a seakayak book. Feel free to read my humble review on this site's review page & definitely check out The Hurricane Riders latest four video series "The Push" I, II, III & IV,(there you can see some of what sets the Reflection apart from the Delphin & other boats).

Enjoy your new boats, they are exceptional,(just not as exceptional as my new boat :) ).

All the best,, a.k.a. tOM

  Posted by: bowler1 on Apr-26-13 5:32 AM (EST)
I have not heard of that boat, but sounds like it may be pretty cool.

So I have to ask you what someone asked above about the Aries--what makes the Reflection so different? You mention that it has rewritten the book on what a sea kayak can do. I took a quick look at their website and saw some pictures of the Reflection (but they were pictures of it in the water). I could not get a good look at the chines or bottom, but the hull in the water looked to have little difference from a typical 16 foot Brit boat in that it did not appear to have a tremendous amount of rocker or any radical design characteristics.

Just curious about what sets that boat apart.

  WS Zephyr is "conventional"
  Posted by: Kocho on Apr-26-13 11:27 AM (EST)
-- Last Updated: Apr-26-13 11:49 AM EST --

I replaced my Zephyr 15.5 with the Delphin 155 and I feel, for whitewater and currents the Delphin offers a significant jump in capabilities over the Zephyr. The Delphin spins around faster with no hard edging necessary (you don't want to be edging hard just to turn in pushy whitewater). It also has higher primary stability and s a lot less affected by currents and boils. The Delphin gives you a lot more latitude to the angle at which you can attack eddy lines, where the Zephyr you have to pretty much point it perfectly or it will swing out of control by the current.

And yes, please explain about the Reflection. Other than light weight and customization of the deck height, it looks a lot like a Romany with extra rocker and more pinched ends.... And maybe that's all there is to it - the wide mid section and pinched ends allow great turning when on edge and the rocker and ability to affect the trim of the boat by leaning back and forward allow to release the font and rear on demand. Since I have never even seen one of these in person, I too am curious for someone to explain what makes the boat "special" in specific terms and try to relate that to design attributes.


  I think it's Reg & Sterling...
  Posted by: on Apr-26-13 5:11 PM (EST)
...and maybe they have a stash of pixie dust, 'cause the boat is, well, magic.

Check out the THR videos I mantioned and you can see it for yourself. Links to the vids on Sterling's facebook site or directly on "The Hurricane Riders" facebook. One or two of the vids shows one of the THR crew surfing a Delphin while most of the others are in Sterling's Relection, Grand Illusion or Marty in his creation from ,(I believe), a Romany.

Check it out, you'll enjoy it, tOM
  I've seen those before
  Posted by: Kocho on Apr-26-13 6:27 PM (EST)
I can see how the Reflection turns really well in the surf with an extreme edge (bow is up, stern slicing). The Delphin can't do that, as it's edges make it track straighter, however, I think the Delphin is looser on top of waves and less affected by whitewater and currents. Different boats, I think... But, I believe even pixie dust has a recipe, and I'd like to hear what folks who paddle a Reflection feel the specific ingredients and their effect are :)
  BTW Kocho...
  Posted by: on Apr-26-13 8:30 PM (EST)
I agree with you about ww & currents observations for the Delphin vs Zephyr. They are very different boats though their capabilities are not far apart IMO, though achieved through differing strengths. I really didn't spend that much time in the Delphin since it was not what I was looking for; just didn't wow me.

The Reflection I find super responsive anywhere on a wave ,or on flat water for that matter, inside or outside edge. It does not seem to need to be edged to the extreme to respond, but particularly at speed will thrill when laid over hard onto the inside edge. Also the secondary is such that it's extremely forgiving, allowing my limits to be pushed. The rocker is obviously a big part of the pixie dust, the chines and planing hull as well, I don't have a clue as to why the ends free up as well as they do unless it's pixie dust. It just continues to wow me, allowing me to do at will things I previously only pulled off on rare hard earned occasion.

I'm just really loving it, but am finding it a bit strange & off my game when in any of my other boats. Wish I had more for you but that's all I got.

All the best, tOM
  Posted by: Kocho on Apr-26-13 9:37 PM (EST)
Great info. I've had my eye on these for a while, but don't have where to really put them to good use where I live...
  Posted by: bowler1 on Apr-27-13 6:33 AM (EST)
Yes, the Reflection does sound pretty cool...
  Reflection vs Tiderace Xtra vs Aires
  Posted by: OCD_Yakker on Apr-29-13 9:52 AM (EST)
I would love to see a comparison between these three boats from a real Tiderace paddler..

I have a friend who owned a Delphin that replaced it with an Aires that he said had more hull speed and was quicker responding on the waves.

I owned a TR Xtra but sold it (regretably) when I thought all I would paddle anymore was surfskis. That boat was surfed briefly by a well-known east coast paddler/coach/instructor (G.P.) who loved it and thought it was very technical and capable.

The only Reflection boats I have heard of are on the wrong coast though - and wonder how they would fare in East Coast washing machine/short period chop vs the bigger conditions on the west coast. We just don't have any "Smack Walls" out here that I know of.

That being said though, there are more than enough "rough water play boats" for a thorough review by Sea Kayaker Mag or others out there. I would even renew my subscription just to read that review!! And let's not forget the existing play boats out there aka Romany, Avocet, Pintail, etc etc either.

Too many toys, not enough time!!! (or cash)

  Same question
  Posted by: wavespinner on Apr-29-13 12:07 PM (EST)
Lacking the hard bow chines, whitewater outfitting and aft of midships CG, I don't see how the Reflection would compare to the P&H boats in their intended genre. Might be a great boat for its design mission, but lacks what P&H designed in to go in its direction.
   Reflection vs Tiderace Xtra vs Aires
  Posted by: nickjc on Apr-29-13 12:47 PM (EST)
I own a reflection. Test paddled the aires and xtra, delphin,gemini before getting the reflection.
I found the delphin too slow to catch small waves and not a good fit for my big feet and long legs. Aires was better and more responsive but still pushed a big bow wake. Gemini was good and had good glide for it's size but was a little low volume for my 220 lbs. The xtra was little tight on my feet and I prefered the softer chines of the reflection.
Reflection is absolutely fantastic. I've had thing on some big waves, 4-6' standing waves, 8kt tide rips and it just gives you so much control. I love the symmetric ends for riding surge into rock gardens then back surfing out. The only downfall is the thin gel coat.
The aires is a great boat too. A friend was just up surfing at Skooks (a 10kt standing wave in BC. ) last week with her tiderace xcite-s. She battled to stay but then switched to the aires and nailed it first try.
Here's here gopro footage in the aires.
I also just tested the NEW epic V10 yesterday in some nice waves and 20kt winds. looks like I found my next surfski.


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