Kayaks paddling with canoes
Posted by: Waterbird on Mar-16-13 10:47 PM (EST) Category: unassigned
I (a kayaker) have two paddling partners who are canoeists. Both want to go camping with me. I'm hesitant because (1) I'm afraid of what will happen to them if we run into "conditions"; and (2) my experience is that a solo canoe can't keep up with a kayak.
In other words, a kayak can do things tha canoes can't do, and do it more efficiently and safely. For example, what if we get stranded on an island because the canoes can't make it back to the launch on a windy day?
Canoes and kayaks have a different camping style, too.
Can kayaks and canoes be compatible on tour?
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Canoes & kayaks..............|
Posted by: thebob.com on Mar-16-13 11:00 PM (EST)
Speed is not an issue|
Posted by: willi_h2o on Mar-16-13 11:25 PM (EST)
Single blade canoe can keep up with a kayak and pass,
It all depends|
Posted by: guideboatguy on Mar-17-13 12:00 AM (EST)
Posted by: Waterbird on Mar-17-13 2:12 PM (EST)
That was a realistic answer.
Speaking as one who kayaks and canoes|
Posted by: ezwater on Mar-17-13 12:19 AM (EST)
and is a retired psychologist, I'd say you don't want to paddle camp with your friends.
Big group of mixed style boats|
Posted by: elkhermes on Mar-17-13 2:04 AM (EST)
Last January I was with a group of 30 people that paddled down 40 miles of the lower Colorado River above Yuma, AZ. The boats in the group consisted of a pretty mixed lot of sea kayaks, recreational kayaks, touring kayaks, canoes, and a Hobie Catamaran. We had zero issues with a mixed group like that. Everyone there were experienced paddlers. We had very windy conditions and there were no serious problems with anyone or their boats.
We Do It All the Time!|
Posted by: dougd on Mar-17-13 6:25 AM (EST)
With your attitude...|
Posted by: roanguy on Mar-17-13 6:26 AM (EST)
I'm starting to remember|
Posted by: Waterbird on Mar-17-13 2:15 PM (EST)
I'm pretty sure I know you from a past life. I believe we met at Waterloo. Are you still mad about that?
As de ol' Mingo sayin' goes...|
Posted by: FatElmo on Mar-17-13 9:03 AM (EST)
Do it all the time.|
Posted by: waterspyder on Mar-17-13 9:21 AM (EST)
There has never been a problem including during multiday camping trips with varying water conditions. Its all about the group dynamics and how the paddlers get along not the type of boat they are paddling. One item we talk about ahead of time if new people are joining us is that each person is responsible for transporting their own gear. This is to avoid people looking at all that space in a canoe and figuring they can bring folding chairs etcetera and have the canoeist transport them. Even that has never been an issue but it gets the "new" person to practice packing everything in their boat at home. With shared gear we try and split as evenly as possible so no one becomes the pack mule.
Posted by: mrmannerz on Mar-17-13 10:37 AM (EST)
I think that your canoe pals need to take you on a trip that has a bunch of portages. I'm sure their nice guys and will wait for you to catch up.
canoe paddling with kayaks|
Posted by: sg6 on Mar-17-13 11:09 AM (EST)
I went on a river trip last summer, 3 kayaks and 2 canoes. The one solo canoe was always in the lead, couldnt keep up with him. He is a very seasoned paddler and could maneuver his canoe, better than anyone that was paddling that day. Im a kayaker, but have seen what an experienced paddler can do with a canoe. A lot depends on the paddler, not the type of kayak or canoe they are in. Keep paddlin and have fun!!!!!!
Posted by: Celia on Mar-17-13 11:24 AM (EST)
As above, if the canoeists are good there really should not be a problem as far as speed goes. And canoes have done the Maine Island trail - but they are pretty good canoeists and are fully set up with float bags etc.
Went on a 4 day, slow-moving river trip|
Posted by: redmond on Mar-17-13 11:43 AM (EST)
once, I was in my kayak along with two tandem/paddled solo canoes. A good friend of mine set it up and we knew each other pretty well. I like to move out, not really a racer, but not really casual either. He told me I could move out like I liked, just stop periodically so we could get together. So, I had the option. Sometimes I'd crank it up and sometimes I'd hang back and talk.
Canoeists bring pies|
Posted by: Celia on Mar-17-13 12:27 PM (EST)
Literally - we had a mixed canoe/kayak group of fellow workers, now fellow retirees, that have done an annual trip for years. One of the food calculations is how many pies to bring - intact - because of having the canoes. Yum!
Pie in the hatch .......|
Posted by: willi_h2o on Mar-17-13 12:51 PM (EST)
A kayaking friend brought a home baked pie nicely
the inverse problem|
Posted by: rblturtle on Mar-17-13 1:06 PM (EST)
as a solo canoer when i plan an lead paddles and camping trips with my paddling friends i have the opposite problem. on day trips the kayakers have trouble with a difficult launch,having to get out at obsticals and shallow spots,and lunch break spot takouts. on overnights they have trouble with carrys and want a wilderness trip with none.they do also usually want to go faster. i have stopped trying to plan a compromise paddle. i plan it for the way i want and advertise it honestly so they can choose weather to come. you could do the same.
Posted by: dc9mm on Mar-17-13 1:11 PM (EST)
Sounds like you are talking about open water sea kayaking? Not knowing much about canoes but I have seen skirts and floatation can be added to canoes. BUT if they dont have that added to there canoes I wouldnt think sea kayaking to islands would be a good idea in a canoe without skirts and flotation.Iam I wrong? River tripping sure but open water sea kayaking not so sure without added equipment which they may or may not have. But then again your kayak needs a skirt too.
Posted by: Waterbird on Mar-17-13 2:22 PM (EST)
which often have ocean conditions.
sometimes its hard to find the right |
Posted by: tdaniel on Mar-17-13 3:51 PM (EST)
paddling partners for a given stretch of water. I don't know you, your friends, or much about ocean like conditions, but we should all listen to that little voice inside us. If you're having reservations then consider your options. You could find a stretch of water that is more compatible for the group or get a new group to complete what you want to do. You owe it to your paddling buddies to be honest. Tell them your concerns. You could purpose a compromise by: limiting open water time/crossings, renting better suited craft,or trying a shakedown trip. Its bad karma to go against your little voice.Only do what you're comfortable with when it comes to others safety. It is okay to lie about the takeout. Its always "just around the bend" or "a little further." Everybody expects that.
Mixed marriages ...|
Posted by: rnsparky on Mar-17-13 4:22 PM (EST)
Posted by: nycmhandy on Mar-17-13 11:55 PM (EST)
I paddle all the time with kayakers -- I in my fast solo canoe. I can usually go faster than most of them. There is one guy who is always faster than I am, but he is faster than all the other kayakers, too. Only once, going through Hell Gate against really strong winds, did kayakers have to turn back and make sure I was all right (I was fine, just "slightly delayed").
Posted by: Waterbird on Mar-18-13 12:29 PM (EST)
Your comments are very, very helpful.
Do your friends use float bags?|
Posted by: Celia on Mar-18-13 12:37 PM (EST)
(in their canoes) It really, really makes a diff in handling on-water issues.
I was wondering about that myself|
Posted by: Waterbird on Mar-18-13 10:44 PM (EST)
Thanks for the reminder. If they have them I'll feel a lot better.
Design does play a part|
Posted by: kayamedic on Mar-18-13 5:02 PM (EST)
in canoe seakindliness. A fat tandem of a tub with no secondary stability is not what you want in chop or waves.
Posted by: Waterbird on Mar-18-13 10:56 PM (EST)
All very helpful information.
You can rescue a canoist|
Posted by: Celia on Mar-19-13 6:58 AM (EST)
from a kayak - at least, once you have spent a little time working on it. This is an incorrect assumption from lack of working with mixed craft.
No, not I|
Posted by: Waterbird on Mar-19-13 8:05 PM (EST)
I'm well aware of my limitations related to age and anatomical functioning. In rough water I would be useless for rescuing another person whether canoe or kayak.
OK - I lacked a critical piece|
Posted by: Celia on Mar-20-13 2:59 PM (EST)
If you are limited from rescuing a kayak, I agree a canoe could be more challenging in a full on capsize recovery. I didn't have the bit that you couldn't assist in rescuing a kayaker.
Do your "friends" know|
Posted by: roanguy on Mar-18-13 6:00 PM (EST)
You posted this here ????
Sorry I have no time for trolls|
Posted by: kayamedic on Mar-18-13 9:52 PM (EST)
What is your point?
My answer was to Waterbird|
Posted by: roanguy on Mar-19-13 6:12 AM (EST)
Read through his posts, and see how he treats his "friends" that paddle canoes.
Have had this experience|
Posted by: Celia on Mar-19-13 8:25 AM (EST)
It is a common experience for kayakers to be joined by relatively unskilled canoeists and find they are significantly slower. We have some canoeists who can smoke many of the kayakers in our local bunch, as well as some (like me) who have some time to go before their stroke is good enough not to be in the slowest group. Many highly skilled canoeists, in my experience, paddle with other canoeists of similar skill more often than kayaks, at least on flat water. WW is a different story.
Posted by: Waterbird on Mar-19-13 8:15 PM (EST)
After reading your post it struck me that a trip should probably be planned around the less skilled paddler and the least seaworthy craft. And then you paddle at the speed of the slowest person. I guess I can live with that. Or if I can't I'll find that out on the first trip. I'm willing to try.
To be honest|
Posted by: Waterbird on Mar-19-13 8:07 PM (EST)
I have no idea who you are or what's on your mind, but that's okay. Carry on.
anything to say about the topic?|
Posted by: slushpaddler on Mar-22-13 12:10 PM (EST)
Or are all your posts here just swipes at other forum members? If it helps, one tip is to ignore the OP's name and just address the topic. Cover one eye if it helps. This was an honest question that deserves a sincere response.
Posted by: rjd9999 on Mar-18-13 9:30 PM (EST)
The first rule of safety for any boating excursion hinges on whether you trust the skills and judgement of your fellow paddlers. If yes, go with them. If no, the decision is really easy. The only difficult call is whether you are unsure of their abilities. In that case, you should probably start with a smaller excursion to assess their judgement and skills.
No requirement to kneel in a canoe.|
Posted by: Yanoer on Mar-18-13 9:58 PM (EST)
Most can be equipped with foot braces and the seats lowered to achieve acceptable stability and control while seated.
safe yet fast canoe|
Posted by: nycmhandy on Mar-20-13 12:01 AM (EST)
Two clarifications to my earlier post, and then an answer to Waterbird's question.
Posted by: rblturtle on Mar-20-13 8:59 AM (EST)
in my experience most kayakers want to paddle faster than solo canoers no matter what the individual speed potential is. i don't know why,but it is almost always the case on mixed paddles. a different mindset maybe.
Good replies that cover ...|
Posted by: davbart on Mar-21-13 7:10 PM (EST)
most everything, except I would add one thing.
Maximum canoe width?|
Posted by: Waterbird on Mar-22-13 7:57 PM (EST)
Can a kayak paddle be used with any canoe, or only with narrow canoes?
I would think|
Posted by: davbart on Mar-22-13 8:20 PM (EST)
at some point you might find it difficult to find a long enough paddle and if you did it would be unwieldy.
There's a lid for every pot|
Posted by: guideboatguy on Mar-22-13 8:34 PM (EST)
One former frequent poster here was devoted to double-blading a canoe, and his paddles were either 8 or 9 feet long, I forget which. I wouldn't care for the extra effort needed to produce the same push from the blade when the blade is that much farther away from one's body (after all, the hand position is about the same for any double-blade paddle, so the longer it gets, the farther you end up on the opposite side of "mechanical advantage", in terms of input force versus output force), but this person said he liked the amount of steering correction he could get when applying power that far from center, so like everything else, you weigh the trade-offs make your choice. I started out double-blading a solo canoe because my rate of learning to be efficient with a single was too slow to suit me. Unlike the long-paddle lovers, I used a 230-cm paddle and a much shorter and rather vertical stroke (I haven't used a double in years though). There seems to be quite a range of variation as far as "what works" simply because "what works" is defined by the individual.
Posted by: beachcamper on Mar-22-13 10:55 PM (EST)
You seem to want a race-style start?|
Posted by: bigspencer on Mar-22-13 11:05 AM (EST)
When one does trips with both craft it's often much easier to start at different times...and maybe take different routes...y/n?
Unintentionally inflammatory question|
Posted by: Waterbird on Mar-22-13 8:06 PM (EST)
I'm curious about this, really. Not intending to incite a riot.
I've paddled kayaks|
Posted by: davbart on Mar-22-13 8:24 PM (EST)
I even own one, but I'm trying to sell it because I find it difficult to sit in akayak for long periods. Having my hips/butt higher than my feet is much more comfortable.
I own & paddle canoes & kayaks |
Posted by: Yanoer on Mar-22-13 8:57 PM (EST)
depending on my mood and the circumstances. I do happen to own more solo canoes than kayaks. I finally got a kayak that fits me the way I like.
I suppose there are many reasons, ...|
Posted by: guideboatguy on Mar-22-13 9:19 PM (EST)
I'd love to have ...|
Posted by: davbart on Mar-22-13 9:49 PM (EST)
a rowboat, e.g guideboat, rangley, for the sounds here in NC. It would open up some nice beach camping.
Build your own.|
Posted by: kelvin1 on Mar-23-13 8:09 AM (EST)
If you wanted to build your own there are free plans for plywood versions at http://flo-mo.weebly.com/two-sheet-boats.html
Posted by: davbart on Mar-23-13 10:34 AM (EST)
I don't know if I have the skills to carry it off.
Posted by: rjd9999 on Mar-22-13 11:05 PM (EST)
Everything about the kayaks I own is wet. Anything that isn't in a dry bag will be damp at the very least(this is the experience I've had on every paddle I've done where the water wasn't flat and I wasn't screwing around). Sure, the boat has "seals," but the seals all seem to breathe at least a little.
Posted by: Waterbird on Mar-23-13 8:40 AM (EST)
I used to carefully pack everything in drybags and was especially paranoid about the down sleeping bag. I've come to totally trust my hatches (Eddyline Journey). Never a drop of water in them. I've stopped using drybags to keep things dry.
Posted by: guideboatguy on Mar-23-13 9:45 AM (EST)
... it's still misplaced logic to view this method of "dry storage" as some kind of advantage over open boats, or a primary reason for choosing a kayak over a canoe. To say otherwise implies that it's harder to keep gear dry in an open boat, and that's just way off the mark. A kayak's gear-storage system is just a byproduct of its decked design.
Posted by: beachcamper on Mar-22-13 11:05 PM (EST)
I paddle the everglades of Florida. There are coastal paddle trips that favor a touring kayak or a decked canoe. In the large backcountry lakes and rivers the canoe makes sense. No where to land and small sites difficult to access from a kayak,
Easier paddling is more boring to some|
Posted by: pblanc on Mar-23-13 10:57 AM (EST)
Posted by: CEWilson on Mar-23-13 1:59 PM (EST)
That's it's neat the OP has a couple canoeing friends who like his company so much that would risk being seen on the water with him in a kayak. They could end up badly humiliated/embarrassed/shamed in the solo canoe world for such a degression.
Posted by: Celia on Mar-23-13 2:18 PM (EST)
Posted by: jackl on Mar-23-13 4:08 PM (EST)
I should have said|
Posted by: Waterbird on Mar-23-13 9:52 PM (EST)
that I equally want to paddle with them and have decided to do so based on the encouraging replies here from people who have done it.
Posted by: jonsprag1 on Mar-24-13 7:32 PM (EST)
use your friends canoes to carry your beer--in a cooler with lots of ice. That way you can go for a longer camping trip