Help with Perimeter Lines - Pics inside

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Help with Perimeter Lines - Pics inside
Posted by: kayak_bob on Feb-17-13 1:12 AM (EST) Category: Kayaks

Greetings All,

Adding Perimeter lines to a Wilderness Tchaika. Have the materials ready, but have some questions on how best to proceed...

Question 1
For the rigging the deck lines to the furthest end of the bow or stern which would be the better option?

Option 1 - drill a hole (but not expanding) next to the bow/stern toggle lines?
http://bobchu.com/temp1/Deck_Lines_Option_1.jpg
(top view of this area)
http://bobchu.com/temp1/Deck_Lines_Option_1_1.jpg

Option 2 - mount a pad eye behind the area in option 1:
http://bobchu.com/temp1/Deck_Lines%20option_2.jpg

Question 2
All the factory installed pad eyes are parallel to the hull:
http://bobchu.com/temp1/Currently.jpg

Assuming I install my pad eyes in the same manner - what would be the best way to run the perimeter lines through them?

Option 1:
http://bobchu.com/temp1/Running_Lines_1.jpg

Option 2:
http://bobchu.com/temp1/Running_Lines_2.jpg
Would probably need to make a knot to keep the loop from slipping through the pad eye? - would make a good mounting point for accessories & bungees?

Side note:
I also have four point mounts, but they seem kinda 'ugly', especially since the other mounts are standard pad eyes - however would these be a better solution?
http://bobchu.com/temp1/Other_Option.jpg

Question 3:
I can't seem to figure out what the purpose of these cleats are for.
http://bobchu.com/temp1/Cleats.jpg

Reading up on some of the archives - it looks like the Mariner kayaks had something like this but they were recessed and it seems like their purpose was to hold a paddle across the deck (with some bungees/rigging?) - however on this kayak they seem to be more of an annoyance at best and a hazard in bad conditions....
If I were to remove them, what could I replace them with/fill in the holes with?

Thanks in advance!,

Bob

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Table of Contents

Help with Perimeter Lines - Pics inside - kayak_bob - Feb-17-13 1:12 AM
- On number three: - jackl - Feb-17-13 5:41 AM
- 4-pointers - edzep - Feb-17-13 6:04 AM
- Deck Fittings - wetzool - Feb-17-13 10:14 AM
- Different approach to consider - carldelo - Feb-17-13 12:16 PM
- a different approach - gnarlydog - Feb-19-13 5:50 PM
- $.02 - LeeG - Feb-19-13 9:54 PM
  - Thank you everyone! - kayak_bob - Feb-20-13 12:25 AM
    - spacing of anchor holes - gnarlydog - Feb-20-13 12:38 AM

Messages in this Topic

  On number three:
  Posted by: jackl on Feb-17-13 5:41 AM (EST)

If it was my boat, I would remove them, and just use smaller stainless bolts and captive(with the plastic insert)nuts with washers to fill the holes.
I have relocated, and removed hardware on various boats, and that is what I do rather than screwing around with patching the hole and then matching the finish.

jack L

  4-pointers
  Posted by: edzep on Feb-17-13 6:04 AM (EST)

The nice thing about the "4-pointers" is that you can used them to make criss-cross bungie lines, AND use them to run static perimeter lines. I'm not sure I'd want to replace the pad eyes with them, though, for the hole differences. And, the 4-pointers need to be on a fairly flat surface.

Those dock cleats are something, eh? I saw a set on a fishing SOT. The guy said he used them for securing an anchor.

  Deck Fittings
  Posted by: wetzool on Feb-17-13 10:14 AM (EST)

Kajaksport makes a number of deck fittings:
http://www.kajaksport.com/www/index.php?option=com_virtuemart&view=category&virtuemart_category_id=5&Itemid=108&lang=en

as does Sea-Lect Designs:
http://www.sealectdesigns.com/products/deck_hardware/eyes_tiedowns_and_guides

You can get two and four point surface mount deck fittings. Use the two point system for question 1. The advantage over pad eyes is that they are designed to be as low profile as possible. They do require a flat spot to mount, but is doesn't need to be very large.

Q2: I used option 1 on my old Sparrow Hawk. See photo.

Q3: I would remove the cleats and fill the holes with gel coat. Maybe they were used to tie off an anchor for fishing?

Cheers,
~wetzool

Click photo to enlarge or click here to change viewing preference.

  Different approach to consider
  Posted by: carldelo on Feb-17-13 12:16 PM (EST)

The cleats definitely look like a copy of Mariner-style rigging. In your situation, I would skip all the extra hardware, and run a painter from one cleat up through the toggle loop and back to the other cleat. I did something similar on the front deck of a skin boat a while back.

Here's the Mariner inspiration, from their website under 'Model History':
http://www.marinerkayaks.com/Mkjpg/Escapict.JPG

And my version:
http://s97.beta.photobucket.com/user/carldelo/media/SC-1%20deck%20lines/Decklines003.jpg.html

The length is adjustable using a sliding knot, and it passes through a loop of bungee at the bow to tension it:

http://s97.beta.photobucket.com/user/carldelo/media/SC-1%20deck%20lines/Decklines004.jpg.html

If you think about it, a double line up the middle of the deck is only a few inches from where a perimeter line would be. The cleats will tend to elevate the line a bit, making it easier to grab.

A painter turned out to be more useful than I would have guessed. I've used it to tie multiple boats to a dock as mine was the only boat that had one.

Also, the two carabiners unhook and drop straight down to the tow hook on my car - magic tie-downs that are always in the right place.

The Mariner system is actually a continuous loop of line that passes through the centers of the cleats. I prefer to have the ends detachable to allow the tie-off options.

  a different approach
  Posted by: gnarlydog on Feb-19-13 5:50 PM (EST)

I am not a fan of pad eyes or other hardware sticking out from the deck and I prefer a surface that has little or no hardware where I can catch my clothing/body on when/if in a rescue.
Protruding hardware has caused injury in the past and these days I create all my deck anchors as recessed ones.
It involves more work and a bit of familiarity with epoxy resin but the results are, in my opinion, superior.
Details on how I create my recessed anchors here: http://gnarlydognews.blogspot.com.au/2010/02/shop-recessed-deck-anchor.html

  $.02
  Posted by: LeeG on Feb-19-13 9:54 PM (EST)

I would much rather put one 10-24 ss machine screw through the deck with finish washer on top and small fender washer underneath holding a loop of folded 1" webbing than a plastic eyelet held with two screws. It won't stick up as much and you can configure one or two loops to hold any number of lines or bungies.

Don't drill another hole or attach another eyelet in the bow. Try a shackle or make a spliced o ring of braided line you can attach handle and perimeter line to.

  Thank you everyone!
  Posted by: kayak_bob on Feb-20-13 12:25 AM (EST)

Thank you everyone for your input!

I think I may go with Gnarlydog's idea - I remember not liking pad eyes very much when in a rescue class a few weeks ago.

In the short run - I may just forgo adding intermediate mounting points for the perimeter lines, if I can use the current bow/stern toggle points (will create another thread for this to help make this information easier to find for future kayakers in this situation)

For Gnarlydog:
Any tips when using epoxy resin? did you mix cut up fiberglass with it? Is there an optimal spacing you found when drilling the two holes - Almost considering removing my current pad eyes and drilling the pad eye holes a little larger to accommodate 1/4" rope - but think they may be too close together?

Thank you everyone again!,

Bob

  spacing of anchor holes
  Posted by: gnarlydog on Feb-20-13 12:38 AM (EST)

Bob, I found that the spacing of the holes for my recess anchors was dictated by the material I used to thread through the deck and then epoxy in. If I used stiffer tubing (poly) it would not create a short radius and the spacing was around 1.5�.
Lately I have been using very large diameter �O� ring (section of �� ) that is a bit stretchy; it makes easier removal when resin has cured.
Make sure that you really grease up well that rubber (or other material) used for the mould or it will stick to the epoxy.
I use epoxy mix (West System) with microfiber and some micro-balloons to the consistency of firm peanut butter so I can work it well around the tube and still have it firm enough so it won�t drip/sag before curing.
I even tint the epoxy to match the color of the deck for a �professional� look. My way of doing the anchors is however limited to where you can get your hand to as locations right of the end of the bow/stern might require working with a stick (hard to get push the epoxy paste around the �O� ring section).

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	On number three: Posted by: jackl on Feb-17-13 5:41 AM (EST)
	If it was my boat, I would remove them, and just use smaller stainless bolts and captive(with the plastic insert)nuts with washers to fill the holes. I have relocated, and removed hardware on various boats, and that is what I do rather than screwing around with patching the hole and then matching the finish. jack L

	4-pointers Posted by: edzep on Feb-17-13 6:04 AM (EST)
	The nice thing about the "4-pointers" is that you can used them to make criss-cross bungie lines, AND use them to run static perimeter lines. I'm not sure I'd want to replace the pad eyes with them, though, for the hole differences. And, the 4-pointers need to be on a fairly flat surface. Those dock cleats are something, eh? I saw a set on a fishing SOT. The guy said he used them for securing an anchor.

	Deck Fittings Posted by: wetzool on Feb-17-13 10:14 AM (EST)
	Kajaksport makes a number of deck fittings: http://www.kajaksport.com/www/index.php?option=com_virtuemart&view=category&virtuemart_category_id=5&Itemid=108&lang=en as does Sea-Lect Designs: http://www.sealectdesigns.com/products/deck_hardware/eyes_tiedowns_and_guides You can get two and four point surface mount deck fittings. Use the two point system for question 1. The advantage over pad eyes is that they are designed to be as low profile as possible. They do require a flat spot to mount, but is doesn't need to be very large. Q2: I used option 1 on my old Sparrow Hawk. See photo. Q3: I would remove the cleats and fill the holes with gel coat. Maybe they were used to tie off an anchor for fishing? Cheers, ~wetzool
	Click photo to enlarge or click here to change viewing preference.

	Different approach to consider Posted by: carldelo on Feb-17-13 12:16 PM (EST)
	The cleats definitely look like a copy of Mariner-style rigging. In your situation, I would skip all the extra hardware, and run a painter from one cleat up through the toggle loop and back to the other cleat. I did something similar on the front deck of a skin boat a while back. Here's the Mariner inspiration, from their website under 'Model History': http://www.marinerkayaks.com/Mkjpg/Escapict.JPG And my version: http://s97.beta.photobucket.com/user/carldelo/media/SC-1%20deck%20lines/Decklines003.jpg.html The length is adjustable using a sliding knot, and it passes through a loop of bungee at the bow to tension it: http://s97.beta.photobucket.com/user/carldelo/media/SC-1%20deck%20lines/Decklines004.jpg.html If you think about it, a double line up the middle of the deck is only a few inches from where a perimeter line would be. The cleats will tend to elevate the line a bit, making it easier to grab. A painter turned out to be more useful than I would have guessed. I've used it to tie multiple boats to a dock as mine was the only boat that had one. Also, the two carabiners unhook and drop straight down to the tow hook on my car - magic tie-downs that are always in the right place. The Mariner system is actually a continuous loop of line that passes through the centers of the cleats. I prefer to have the ends detachable to allow the tie-off options.

	a different approach Posted by: gnarlydog on Feb-19-13 5:50 PM (EST)
	I am not a fan of pad eyes or other hardware sticking out from the deck and I prefer a surface that has little or no hardware where I can catch my clothing/body on when/if in a rescue. Protruding hardware has caused injury in the past and these days I create all my deck anchors as recessed ones. It involves more work and a bit of familiarity with epoxy resin but the results are, in my opinion, superior. Details on how I create my recessed anchors here: http://gnarlydognews.blogspot.com.au/2010/02/shop-recessed-deck-anchor.html

	$.02 Posted by: LeeG on Feb-19-13 9:54 PM (EST)
	I would much rather put one 10-24 ss machine screw through the deck with finish washer on top and small fender washer underneath holding a loop of folded 1" webbing than a plastic eyelet held with two screws. It won't stick up as much and you can configure one or two loops to hold any number of lines or bungies. Don't drill another hole or attach another eyelet in the bow. Try a shackle or make a spliced o ring of braided line you can attach handle and perimeter line to.

	Thank you everyone! Posted by: kayak_bob on Feb-20-13 12:25 AM (EST)
	Thank you everyone for your input! I think I may go with Gnarlydog's idea - I remember not liking pad eyes very much when in a rescue class a few weeks ago. In the short run - I may just forgo adding intermediate mounting points for the perimeter lines, if I can use the current bow/stern toggle points (will create another thread for this to help make this information easier to find for future kayakers in this situation) For Gnarlydog: Any tips when using epoxy resin? did you mix cut up fiberglass with it? Is there an optimal spacing you found when drilling the two holes - Almost considering removing my current pad eyes and drilling the pad eye holes a little larger to accommodate 1/4" rope - but think they may be too close together? Thank you everyone again!, Bob

	spacing of anchor holes Posted by: gnarlydog on Feb-20-13 12:38 AM (EST)
	Bob, I found that the spacing of the holes for my recess anchors was dictated by the material I used to thread through the deck and then epoxy in. If I used stiffer tubing (poly) it would not create a short radius and the spacing was around 1.5�. Lately I have been using very large diameter �O� ring (section of �� ) that is a bit stretchy; it makes easier removal when resin has cured. Make sure that you really grease up well that rubber (or other material) used for the mould or it will stick to the epoxy. I use epoxy mix (West System) with microfiber and some micro-balloons to the consistency of firm peanut butter so I can work it well around the tube and still have it firm enough so it won�t drip/sag before curing. I even tint the epoxy to match the color of the deck for a �professional� look. My way of doing the anchors is however limited to where you can get your hand to as locations right of the end of the bow/stern might require working with a stick (hard to get push the epoxy paste around the �O� ring section).