Black Lagoon Products, LLC:
Building a triple.
Posted by: Riverboy on Jan-19-13 3:31 AM (EST) Category: Kayaks
-- Last Updated: Jan-19-13 6:45 AM EST --
New to the board. I'm sure this question has been asked, but I couldn't find with the search engine.
I'm about to move back to Canada after ten years. I already have an inflatable Sea Eagle Fast Track which I love. But, recently, I've been researching stitch and glue and strip kayaks. I'd like to build a sea kayak and start doing some excursions with my two boys age 8 and 5.
Obviously, a triple kayak is the best choice, but I don't really know which one I should build. I'm pretty good with my hands, so I don't think building will be much of a problem if I get buy some plans.
I love the look and design of cedar strip kayaks, but I can't find any triples. The only triples I've come across are the Chesapeak and the Osprey --which are both nice.
Hopefully you can answer a few of my questions...
So, here are my questions:
Are there designs for a triple strip Kayak?
What is a better kayak, strip, or stitch and glue?
What is better, the Osprey or the Chesapeak?
Are there any other plans that you would recommend?
Thanks in advance!
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- Building a triple. - Riverboy - Jan-19-13 3:31 AM
Posted by: Riverboy on Jan-20-13 12:47 AM (EST)
I'm pretty set on building a triple --simply for the fact that I like to build stuff... andI can show it off! And I already have a dandy inflatable kayak.
And I built a 20 foot fiberglass canoe from an Old Town mold a few years back.
Also, I want something that is a little more sea worthy than a canoe. I'd like to do weekend camping trips at first and eventually even longer.
When the boys are old enough, I'll certainly be looking at the types you mentioned.
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Posted by: LeeG on Jan-20-13 12:01 PM (EST)
Without another adult sized motor your ability to control a 21'x30" boat in wind and waves isn't a whole lot better than a canoe but with another adult you definitely will be able to go places.
Sea socks are a good low weight method to address flotation as a capsized tandem with bulkheads will still take on a huge amount of water compared to a single. A tandem is a good place for an electric bilge pump if you're concerned with the consequences of capsizing. You could turn it into a water cannon for fun.
Most recommendations for reducing weight involve using less epoxy but the trick is to use it where it matters. There's a pretty clear correlation between cosmetic durability and thickness of the fill coats over the glass and under the varnish/paint.
When I say cosmetic durability I mean resistance to water staining intrusion into the wood from dings on edges of coaming,sheer, hatches,etc. Also any water vapor intrusion into the ply through the epoxy from closed compartments or items left sitting against the interior then left to steam in the sun.
Basically multiple thin even coats of epoxy are better than a couple thick ones where the drips and bumps are sanded down.
If you want to go the extra expense s-glass is stronger and more durable than e-glass and damages are confined to a smaller area. Only problem is that it doesn't wet out as clear as e-glass but hulls are a good application for it.
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Posted by: Riverboy on Jan-21-13 3:28 AM (EST)
Thanks so much. Great advice. I'm hoping the boys fill out in a couple of years and the old fella can enjoy the middle.
I certainly have to take heed of capsizing. Honestly, ll the hours I've spent canoeing, I've never flipped one. I'm sure it will happen sooner or later.
I'll definitely take heed of the advice on building quality.
Is it your opinion that stitch and glue is surperior to strip?
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Question re the "in case" situation|
Posted by: Celia on Jan-21-13 9:01 AM (EST)
-- Last Updated: Jan-21-13 3:21 PM EST --
I have no expertise in the issue of building a kayak, especially a triple. The one thought that came up was that you might find yourself very challenged turning such a craft, with only one adult aboard, if the wind kicks up on you. It has a habit of doing that from early afternoon into early evening over ocean water. So planning and timing could make a huge difference in safety for you if you are thinking of getting to places like offshore islands.
My other thought was the rescue scenario. I happen to agree that kayak over canoe is going to be better for the open water you describe, on windage alone, but question being out there with just one boat. I am wondering how you and your sons would handle being in the water at one time and having to get back in. Are they solid enough swimmers etc that you could somehow get them back in either by getting in yourself first, or by throwing them into the boat and keeping it steady while you climbed back in?
It seems that you really have to go them first or them last. You first means you are trying to manage a quite long kayak to get to each of them in the water if they don't hold onto the thing really well. You last means that they are trying to manage it while you climb in. In conditions likely to cause a capsize to start with - it is always a surprise! - both of these could be difficult.
Having two boats, perhaps you with the 5 yr old and the slightly older one in a craft of their own, would leave you (literally) more resources to handle a surprise. You can always tow the other boat if it becomes an issue of tiredness. And it is usually easier to get someone back into their boat from being in your own.
If you were talking lakes and near shore, this stuff matters less. But if you are talking about going well offshore on open water, I would have some real concerns about having only one boat.
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Thinking alike, two boats|
Posted by: LeeG on Jan-21-13 10:29 AM (EST)
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I gotta lot to learn|
Posted by: Riverboy on Jan-21-13 6:44 PM (EST)
Thanks Celia. After reading your post, I realise I have a lot to learn. Initially, I would stick to the shoreline until the boys gain the ability to handle the rougher water. I guess the first couple of years will be quite difficult for me being the engine.
For now, my goal is simply learning how to build one and doing some weekend camping trips. hopefully, We'll be graduate to a higher level and then I can focus on other boats if this one works out.
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a Perception Acadia Scout|
Posted by: LeeG on Jan-21-13 9:45 PM (EST)
Or whatever this years model is is a nice cheap light plastic kayak for a kid, then build that Shearwater double. I used to tow the girls around a lot.
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Seriously you cut it up?|
Posted by: LeeG on Jan-21-13 5:04 PM (EST)
I never had one out in substantial waves. What struck me about the Kulzychi designed double is that it was simply a scaled up Chesapeake 17. The Ch 17 was a high volume kayak and the Ch Tandem was very high volume. The Chesapeakes were an evolution from the highly rockered low volume end Cape Charles and Patuxents that would bow bury in 12" waves. The Patuxent 17 I made in '94 buried to the coaming in 18" waves.
The Chesapeakes addressed the weather cocking of the Cape Charles but above 10mph or so breeze leaning became less effective. The issue of bow burying was partially addressed
by moving the cockpit back and increasing the entire volume of the hull with high freeboard. But the bows were not high volume at all because the construction technique of a pre-glued sheer clamp prevents the side panels from flaring.
I had built a Chesapeake 16,18,Northbay,Pygmy13, PygmyCoho then an Eric Schade Shearwater 16 and 18. The Shearwaters were four panel hulls but without pre-glued sheerclamps. They looked like med/low volume hulls that would bury easier than the other boats but when I took it into the surf it was great.
Thereafter I built a heavily modified version of the Northbay and discovered how the pre-glued sheer clamps prevented the side panels from flaring while forcing the center panels into a sharp v, which ensures then ends will be low volume WHEN mated to that one piece deck that can't tolerate an upswept shear.
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Posted by: Riverboy on Jan-21-13 6:53 PM (EST)
That's some pretty technical stuff there Lee. At this point, I would want to stick to the plans that I buy... at least until I get a feel for the build itself.
Still, my greatest challenge is choosing the safest, most functional boat.
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Posted by: rival51 on Jan-21-13 11:01 PM (EST)
I second the idea of a Pygmy 13 for the boys. My daughter & I built one for her when she was 8. At 9 the next summer she was good with it on Michigan moving water. She could make it move too. No problem keeping up. She's out grown that one now and has a One Ocean Storm LT. (The Osprey 13 is looking for a good home). The Pygmy's are also good for instant gratification. both of the ones that I have built were floatable in two months and finished about 6 weeks later. The strip boat took nearly 11 month from forms to finished.
What ever you decide, enjoy.
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Posted by: carldelo on Jan-21-13 7:21 PM (EST)
I assume you've read the reviews of the Osprey triple here - it sounds like people like it a lot. Of course most reviews are a 9 or 10, so must be taken with a grain of salt.
Having paddled many CLC and Pygmy boats, I would choose the Pygmy design without question. Newer CLC designs look good, particularly the Nick Schade designs, but the Chesapeake is a pretty old and boxy hull. The Osprey series is a more sophisticated design, in my opinion.
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A tapered brick|
Posted by: LeeG on Jan-21-13 8:17 PM (EST)
best describes a Chesapeake. They can be paddled to a high cruising speed while carrying a ton of stuff. Kind of like a freighter. But not designed from a paddlers experience in wind and waves.
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