In my Q700X I did two back to back 5 nautical mile loops, first using my Onno wing set at 208 cm. Then I repeated the loop using my 223.5 cm (88 inch) Novorca GP. Cadence with the wing and GP were 72 spm and 62 spm respectively. GPS indicated moving average speed was 4.2 kts with the wing and 3.9 kts with the GP. But there were tidal differences, plus I was slightly fatigued from the first effort, so the utility of the comparison is questionable.
The short length of the wing, and the short wing stroke compared to the deep long GP stroke account for the cadence difference. A rowing instructor once told me that if one wants the boat to move faster, then pull faster not harder, especially over a longer distance. I think higher cadence might be more efficient for me and am thinking of getting a shorter GP to get that cadence increase.
I greatly enjoy fooling around with different paddles, technique, and my GPS.
The Kayak Wing
EZ-Dock modular docks
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Another comparison would be|
Posted by: Kocho on Jan-09-13 9:47 AM (EST)
To maintain the same heart rate and observe your speed with the 2 paddles. It would be interesting to see if the GP or the Wing moves you faster for the same effort. And if this is still the case over a short vs. a long distance...
pure mechanical vs human muscles|
Posted by: jcbikeski on Jan-09-13 12:03 PM (EST)
It seems it's all about finding the sweet spot for each person. For a robot paddler keeping the blade in front and only moving it say a foot or two but very fast may be ideal. But human muscles have limits on cadence. Some of the limits I think geneticallly unique to each person but you can train to move those limits a bit. Often this means using a very short cadence for short bursts but finding something more moderate for the long haul. Cyclist deal with this same question a lot.
Posted by: CEWilson on Jan-09-13 12:30 PM (EST)
Then its time to slow down|
Posted by: kayamedic on Jan-09-13 6:51 PM (EST)
if you have lost the line. Paddling harder just makes correcting the course harder.
Posted by: clydehedlund on Jan-09-13 6:23 PM (EST)
Really appreciate you sharing your experiences "fooling around" with different paddles and strokes. Watch out though, for eventually, you might discover better or more efficient ways of paddling that many experts consider wrong. So continue to experiment, enjoy and have fun paddling.
Posted by: gjf12 on Jan-09-13 11:41 PM (EST)
Kocho, I am not clear that heart rate is a good measure. Seems to me that with too large a blade your muscles get fatigued without raising heart rate excessively, and too high a cadence would raise the heart rate excessively. Also, over a 5 or 10 mile course the heart rate would not stay constant. But I have never tried a heart rate monitor, so don't know.
Posted by: Kocho on Jan-10-13 8:32 AM (EST)
I'm no expert so I might be wrong, but if you are getting tired with low heart rate, it seems to indicate you are not working your large muscles. Also, I don't suggest keeping a constant heart rate over time, just keep it similar between the two paddles. I don't know how high vs. low cadence vs. heart rate interrelate... If you slice the GP rather than pull it back, you could have pretty high cadence despite the paddle being longer; gripping it with hands closer together on the shaft also helps increase cadence. But I might be mistaken - my GP is only a few inches longer than my wing and if yours is significantly longer, then it might make a bigger difference...
wing paddle length|
Posted by: nickjc on Jan-10-13 1:27 PM (EST)
You should play with the length of your wing and see what that does for you. I'm lucky enough to have a few elite paddlers in my weekly workout group. One guy suggested shortening up my paddle 1 or 2 cm. It made a noticeable difference in cadence and ability to change speeds and sprinting.
70 Kayak Strokes Equal 35 Canoe Strokes|
Posted by: clydehedlund on Jan-10-13 7:35 PM (EST)
Kicking it up around 80+ will make a hell of a difference. Even at 90 spm, it is only half as many as the current 200m Olympic kayak Champ does. One & half strokes per second, using an Onno Small Wing (@208cm) enables me to stay with the teenager. To maintain that pace using the Onno Small Mid-wing, I shorten the shaft to between 203 - 205 cm. With the Onno Large Wing, the Onno Lever Lock is clamped at 199cm for a hell of a workout with the pacer set at 90spm. When I decide on the appropriate length, I'll order the Onno Mid-wing later this year and compare it to the others.
Posted by: gjf12 on Jan-10-13 11:14 PM (EST)
The min length on my Onno small-mid is 208 and that length seems about right for me to get full immersion at the catch. I am too old to do any sprints and 80 spm is just too fast for me to maintain for several miles.
Preserve Your Fast Twitch Muscles|
Posted by: clydehedlund on Jan-11-13 7:03 AM (EST)
Or they'll shrivel up if you don't sprint. Do it often and you'll find yourself warming up at 80 spm, for sprinting seems to awaken the whole body.
good advice (perhaps)|
Posted by: gjf12 on Jan-11-13 5:43 PM (EST)
My body needs waking up, especially those fast twitches. Unfortunately I stopped twitching about a decade ago. But you inspired me to try a few sprints on my next outings.
Take a look at the videos|
Posted by: mjamja on Jan-10-13 1:16 AM (EST)
on the qajaqusa site and see what you think is their stroke rate.
Posted by: gjf12 on Jan-10-13 11:23 PM (EST)
Are you the Mark with whom I paddled in Corpus Christi, with Ken J., a number of years ago? Do you still use your Mariner?
Guilty as charged.|
Posted by: mjamja on Jan-11-13 11:34 AM (EST)
Yes I am in Corpus. Mostly paddling an Impex Force Cat3. The Mariner Elan is kind of my camping kayak (since it does not have bulkheads) and I have not been doing that much camping lately. Acutally have not been doing much paddling at all recently.
Posted by: clydehedlund on Jan-11-13 3:43 PM (EST)
If your stoke is "canted" for both GP styles?