Modern 'Glass Boats: Can't Take A Punch?
Posted by: NewbTastic on Dec-15-12 3:39 PM (EST) Category: Kayaks
Interesting article... was curious to see if ppl generally concurred with it:
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|Table of Contents|
|Messages in this Topic|
Posted by: radiomix on Dec-15-12 3:55 PM (EST)
Depends on the layup, of course|
Posted by: pblanc on Dec-15-12 4:28 PM (EST)
It is kind of ironic that as Americans in general have gotten bigger, and heavier, they have been increasingly reluctant to buy "heavy" boats. Given the same materials, the lighter the layup and the heavier the load it is expected to carry, the more likely the boat is to crack, or suffer more catastrophic failure.
Pay through the nose unless you buy |
Posted by: g2d on Dec-15-12 11:58 PM (EST)
from Kaz. Millbrook prices are hundreds of dollars below similar layups.
Please elaborate on Kaz and Millbrook|
Posted by: suntan on Dec-17-12 9:41 AM (EST)
Posted by: g2d on Dec-17-12 2:27 PM (EST)
Posted by: willi_h2o on Dec-15-12 4:47 PM (EST)
To some degree I agree|
Posted by: LeeG on Dec-15-12 5:42 PM (EST)
The old Necky boats made with no core material but solid Kevlar and strips of carbon with half round dowel were pretty durable even if gel coat cracks showed up everywhere. But the present Cobra made Necky boats are stiff and tough. The all core Chinese made Perception kayaks need more glass on the inside.
Again With the Bicycles|
Posted by: Kudzu on Dec-15-12 6:17 PM (EST)
Good bicycle frames continue to get lighter and lighter. They've had their growing pains but manufacturers keep at it. Yeah, you pay extra for the light stuff but go check out your local group ride. Most all carbon fiber. I think kayak makers who want to compete need to emulate bike frame makers.
Posted by: LeeG on Dec-15-12 9:08 PM (EST)
I'd be perfectly happy with an S glass layup with painted finish.
I Respect That|
Posted by: Kudzu on Dec-15-12 9:35 PM (EST)
Some folks still ride steel frames. But the numbers keep dropping.
Posted by: NewbTastic on Dec-15-12 10:03 PM (EST)
...I am told by my hardcore bike-riding friends that steel has been achieving a mini-resurgence in bicycles in recent years. Though it's in no danger of unseating carbon fiber as the 'coveted' material, especially in high-end racing bikes.
What I've Seen...|
Posted by: Kudzu on Dec-16-12 5:34 AM (EST)
in my corner of the world is old steel frames put back into service. For quite a while it was popular to get an old steel Centurion or Fuji and turn it into a single speed or fixed gear. A couple weeks back I saw a Centurion on a car that had really weird handlebars; like someone had turned it into a track bike.
Not just the material for bikes|
Posted by: Celia on Dec-16-12 6:44 AM (EST)
Some of it is the ride. For example, when I went looking for my last bike there was still no aluminum ride that had the feeling I liked from steel, and the carbon fiber bikes were all over the ball park in that area. I got steel, the only change I would have made a couple of years later would have been to go for titanium.
Steel is still queen in bikes|
Posted by: bartc on Dec-16-12 9:04 AM (EST)
King is titanium for weight to strength, and both are very good at absorbing shock. They can be made stiffer where you want power to drive, and flexier where you want vibration absorption. Both of them wear long and hard, unlike aluminum, which isn't too shock absorbant and doesn't last all that long if run hard.
Segment of the Market|
Posted by: Kudzu on Dec-16-12 9:47 AM (EST)
Among road bikers who race or ride for fitness (rat-racers / club riders) steel is not queen... at least not in my corner of the world. By far the material of choice is carbon fiber. Distant 2nd would be aluminum (mostly Cannondales). I see a smattering of titanium and steel bikes. In my group steel is more like a duchess. I ride a steel frame that can't be had anymore. The maker switched to carbon because of demand.
And yet, steel keeps hanging around...|
Posted by: NewbTastic on Dec-16-12 12:46 PM (EST)
There's been a number of smaller companies springing up over the past decade or two - names like Surly, SOMA, Rivendell, Jamis, Kona, Velo-Orange, Handsome, All-City, etc- and older names such as Raleigh that have been doing well with their steel bike lines.
Light, strong, inexpensive...|
Posted by: abc on Dec-16-12 3:32 PM (EST)
Pick any two!
Therefore , Hence, Consequently,|
Posted by: Kudzu on Dec-16-12 3:46 PM (EST)
If the kayak industry follows the trend of the bike industry, more and more boats will get lighter and lighter. A segment, albeit a small, one will opt for heavier boats for price and strength reasons.
What planet do YOU live on?|
Posted by: Bnystrom on Dec-16-12 5:25 PM (EST)
You can have your CF, IMO|
Posted by: bartc on Dec-17-12 12:02 AM (EST)
I won't ever go for a CF fork, period! You gotta be kidding. You know from what you wrote that its failure is dramatic and highly dangerous. Even the manufacturers warn you to have it inspected any time it takes a bruise, whether or not you can see any evidence of damage.
It's not that simple|
Posted by: Bnystrom on Dec-19-12 10:59 PM (EST)
Safety is only a concern with CF in the event of crashes or other impacts that cause frame damage. Up to the point of failure, it's every bit as safe as any other material. Advances in resins, nanoparticles and combining CF with other fibers have improved durability substantially, and it will continue to improve over time.
To the future, then|
Posted by: bartc on Dec-20-12 5:15 PM (EST)
As it happens, I agree with you on the future of CF and similar materials. There will be so much more they can do and do it better in our lifetimes. There already is!
Take horror stories with a grain of salt|
Posted by: bnystrom on Dec-21-12 7:19 AM (EST)
If someone claims they were just riding along (known in the bike biz as the "JRA" excuse) and they carbon fiber frame, fork or whatever failed, it's probably a load of crap. While there have been some issues with off-brand Chinese bikes that you see on Ebay and Alibaba, there have been very few issues with bikes from reputable companies, as their designs are heavily tested and even the lightest ones are designed to handle exceptional stresses. CF bikes and components only fail if they're damaged in some way and that doesn't just happen by itself.
Posted by: kwikle on Dec-17-12 8:49 AM (EST)
Many many small frame fabricators are working exclusively in steel. And it isn't at the detriment to CF, but rather for the strength to weight ratio for the COST, steel wins hands down. And the resurgence of all the interest in fixies, and hand-built bikes has created a resurgence of steel frames. It's what all the cool kids in skinny jeans are buying!
Posted by: jsmarch on Dec-17-12 10:04 AM (EST)
I have a custom Mike Appel steel road bike from the early 80s and can't bear to part with it even though I don't ride much any more. He used tubing from various makers so as to tune the bike to its purpose and rider--no tubing maker decals on his bikes. Before getting this frame, I road a Cannondale. Took several minutes off my 25 mile TT with the new frame. Have ridden a lot of off the shelf bikes over the years and never found anything I liked better probably because the Appel was perfectly set up just for me....
Posted by: Kudzu on Dec-17-12 10:15 AM (EST)
Nothing like a bike that fits perfectly. Well maybe a kayak. And a Lumpy paddle.
Posted by: Kudzu on Dec-17-12 10:11 AM (EST)
I think it would be fair to say steel is nearly dead in the 'go fast multi gear' road bike market. In the rest of the market...not so much.
I think it's fair to |
Posted by: kwikle on Dec-17-12 1:05 PM (EST)
say that racing doesn't use cf bikes? But cycling, like kayaking is more than racing.
re: to summarize|
Posted by: NewbTastic on Dec-17-12 4:49 PM (EST)
Posted by: Kudzu on Dec-17-12 6:08 PM (EST)
Posted by: pikabike on Dec-17-12 1:55 PM (EST)
Light, strong, and lively but not too flexy, assuming you match it and the design to the rider's weight and use. Like steel, the feel can be made to vary.
I have an old Impex Susquehanna|
Posted by: TrevorN on Dec-15-12 10:41 PM (EST)
A Gabby Hayes who never read |
Posted by: g2d on Dec-16-12 12:05 AM (EST)
Wallbridges "Boatbuilders Manual" and never paid real attention to how composite ww boats hold up with abuse that sea kayaks need ten years to accumulate. (Tsunami Rangers and heedless klutzes excepted.)
I agree with SS/KK|
Posted by: Glenn_MacGrady on Dec-16-12 10:38 AM (EST)
Best combination for weight, impact resistance and scrape resistance.
It's also apparent...|
Posted by: Bnystrom on Dec-16-12 5:44 PM (EST)
...that he doesn't know how to repair 'glass boats, either.
2nd, 3rd and 4th that|
Posted by: onnopaddle on Dec-16-12 7:42 PM (EST)
Posted by: suiram on Dec-16-12 7:37 AM (EST)
There are manufacturers that stuck to the old ways of making boats while cutting down on resin and gelcoat. That did not have good effect on hull resistance, since in the good old days resin and gelcoat were an essential part of boat's construction.
Necky and Tiderace...|
Posted by: NewbTastic on Dec-16-12 12:09 PM (EST)
...aren't both their boats produced in Thailand, by Cobra?
Posted by: suiram on Dec-17-12 10:25 AM (EST)
In order to justify high tech production volume is required. Even though molds are specific to each model produced, the rest of it - vacuum pumps, autoclaves, etc. are the same.
Posted by: paddletothesea on Dec-17-12 11:06 AM (EST)
of all the production kayaks and canoes in n.america....all have about 2-3 layers of glass except two companies. and they have 12-lyers in one and i think close to that in the other.
They are not the only ones to make |
Posted by: pblanc on Dec-17-12 1:17 PM (EST)
tough, composite boats. I have a Clipper whitewater canoe in Kevlar/Duraflex that has taken some wicked hits:
Posted by: paddletothesea on Dec-19-12 6:30 PM (EST)
still only three layers.....just sayin
I don't think your info is accurate|
Posted by: pblanc on Dec-19-12 6:43 PM (EST)
For example, my Kevlar/Duraflex Clipper Viper has 10 layers of cloth on the hull bottom and 4 on the sides near the gunwales.
Posted by: paddletothesea on Dec-20-12 11:53 AM (EST)
great to now have three boats over 4 layers. thanks
I'm not sure where you get info about|
Posted by: g2d on Dec-20-12 5:35 PM (EST)
the number of cloth layers in composite boats. I've owned a number of composite boats built by Phoenix, Dagger, Millbrook, Moore, Mad River, and Bluewater, and the minimum number of layers has been four. My latest Millbrook does appear to have only three layers in the upper sides, but the chines and bottom have two outer layers of S-glass, a layer of denser-than-usual Spheretex, and one to two layers of Kevlar. My Dagger, a 21 pound slalom c-1, has two S-glass outer layers, and two carbon inner layers.
heavy vs. strong|
Posted by: nickjc on Dec-17-12 1:40 PM (EST)
They author mistakenly equates strength with weight. He's confusing the sacrificial quality of a thick gelcoat with the strength of the underlying fiberglass.
Chopped mat weaknes is matter of context|
Posted by: scott_f on Dec-17-12 4:30 PM (EST)
The chopped mat I have seen is layered with woven cloth. This makes for a strong layup as chopped mat is isotropic and helps to re-enforce the weakness of bi-directional woven cloth. I have not seen cloth layers laid down at 45 degree angles to help strengthen a cloth only layup (although that layer may be hidden underneath the visible layers). Cloth is strong, but only in two directions. Pull at cloth on a 45 or even 20 degree angle and it is significantly weaker. Mat also bonds very well to other layers because its random surface strands interlace.
Our '73 Moore has "octometric" layup,|
Posted by: g2d on Dec-17-12 5:20 PM (EST)
Posted by: scott_f on Dec-17-12 10:32 PM (EST)
has glue which dissolves in traditional resins. West says it's OK to use their epoxy, but admit that the bonding chemical is not dissolved. Patching to old mat should be fine though, because all the glue would have been dissolved already.
First, all ww slalom and downriver |
Posted by: g2d on Dec-18-12 12:11 AM (EST)
canoes and kayaks are composite, for lightness. And there are certain special layups that are nearly as durable as poly, and more repairable, but such boats are about as heavy as poly. Usually such boats are made of some very stretchy fabric, in multiple layers, bound by a resin that forms an unusually tenacious bond to the fibers. An example was the "Fiberlastic" layup that Phoenix used to offer. Vinylester resin, and many layers of some kind of stretchy cloth. I own one such, and in 15 years of harsh ww campaigning, it only partly broke once, in a very small area.
Give me plastic and a cart|
Posted by: FrankNC on Dec-25-12 8:26 PM (EST)
Maybe it's just that all the rocks around me are sharp. Combine that with a lot of oyster beds and I want something really tough and abrasion resistant.