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  Dromedary Bag in the Cockpit????
  Posted by: bowler1 on Nov-17-12 7:27 PM (EST)   Category: unassigned 

Hi,
On my kayak trips on saltwater I carry several MSR Dromedary bags that I carry in the hatches up against the bulkhead. Works great, but they take up a lot of valuable hatch space.

I read an article recently where Jeff Allen said he carries one large Dromedary (a 13 liter) instead of multiple smaller ones and places it in the cockpit.

I can see where that would save a lot of hatch spaces; however, I wonder if that would have a negative impact on the ability to roll the boat if you needed / wanted to.

A loaded boat is no harder to roll than an unloaded, boat, but I wonder if the very heavy "loose" item in the cockpit could be detrimental. If you were capsized and upside down, the heavy bag would fall to the deck side of the cockpit and potentially cause the boat to want to stay upside down rather than to roll up. At least this is what I would logically see as happening.

Anyone have any experience in doing this who can comment?

thanks

Matt

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Messages in this Topic

 
  behind the seat
  Posted by: Peter-CA on Nov-17-12 7:55 PM (EST)
-- Last Updated: Nov-17-12 7:56 PM EST --

I have put behind the seat, and usually attach it to the seat. I think mine is smaller than the 13. Of course, the seat needs to be reasonably secure if you are going to do this.

But usually when I am touring and carrying gear, I am more conservative in my paddling. So only rarely rolling.

I did roll a year and a half ago when I was doing an overnight rock gardening trip on the Big Sur coast, but can't remember if I had a dromedary there. Was in my Alchemy (14'), so likely did, as there isn't a lot of space elsewhere. But if it fit, I may have had it at the bottom of the day hatch.

 
 
  behind the seat....
  Posted by: bowler1 on Nov-17-12 8:06 PM (EST)
that's another good option that may prevent the bag from flopping from bottom to top, thus potentially hindering rolling.

I will take a look to see if that will work in my boat. I think it may work in my Nordkapp which has a good amount of space behind the seat...not sure about my Explorer though.


Matt
 
 
  type of paddling
  Posted by: rusty125 on Nov-17-12 11:00 PM (EST)
I think it will depend somewhat on the type of paddling you will be doing. I keep a 3L camelback behind the seat of my Nordy, and that is about all that will fit under the backback to bulkhead straps.

You are talking about nearly 30lbs of water that will slosh around big time. This will not be much fun if you are already pushing your limits in conditions. If you have spent much time paddling with a partially flooded cockpit, you know what I mean.

If you can figure out a way to secure the bladders to the bottom of the boat it would be helpful, but sloshing will always have some effect even just while just leaning the boat. If you are paddling moderately flat water, then it would be reasonable to go for it, but I would do some serious testing before I headed out on a trip expecting to do this for the first time.
 
 
  Try it out and see what works for you
  Posted by: paddlemore on Nov-17-12 8:23 PM (EST)
A loose 13 L Dromedary bag (27.5 lbs or less) in the cockpit of a loaded sea kayak should make that much of a difference. It you try it out and does keep you from rolling then you know you need to work on your technique.
 
 
  Another Consideration
  Posted by: LittleRed on Nov-17-12 11:59 PM (EST)
Another thing to keep in mind about one large Dromedary vs several smaller ones: If you put all your eggs in one basket, so to speak, you could be in trouble if you lose that large one or it springs a leak (even though Dromedaries are pretty tough).
 
 
  Shouldn't be an issue
  Posted by: rjd9999 on Nov-18-12 3:34 AM (EST)
Items that are not secured to the boat will also move along with the rolling motion. As the boat moves from upside down to slightly to its side, the bag would follow the lowest point of contact in the boat and essentially follow the hull line.

Water is heavy, but I really don't think the bag would be so large that it would hinder rolling. I've seen people re-enter and roll completely flooded hulls and I can't imagine it would be worse than that.

I tend to not like things to be loose in the boat, however, so I try to find solutions which keep items secured as much as possible. One could also find/make a container for your water bag that could then be secured in the boat (either behind the seat or a place where it won't impede comfort or mobility).

Rick
 
 
  yes
  Posted by: lyngo on Nov-18-12 6:33 AM (EST)
When camping I almost always paddle with an unsecured 10L water bottle between my legs. Not ideal, just not alot of options, hatch space is way too precious and securing the bag would mean rope in the cockpit, an entrapment risk, or placing the bag too far forward. I don't think it would impact rolling at all but I agree that it is best to have it behind the seat if possible. Lyn
 
 
  All good thoughts....
  Posted by: bowler1 on Nov-18-12 7:54 AM (EST)
But has anyone actually tried rolling with the bag in the cockpit?

Of course I can try it my self, but just don't feel like going and packing up my whole boat and going to the expense of buying a 10 liter dromedary in order to try it.

Agree with the re-entry and roll analogy and I thought of that too, but in that instance the water rolls pretty evenly to the lowest point of the boat at all times where the big bag would perhaps not be so dynamic in its tendancy to do that (it may tend to stick and then rapidly slide or fall).

As far as conditions, I would be paddling in potential conditions or where I may choose to roll to cool off anyway.

Just wondering if anyone has tried it.
 
 
  has been a problem
  Posted by: NateHanson on Nov-18-12 4:46 PM (EST)
I have not put my 10L bag under my legs because a friend once got capsized during an expedition, and when he rolled up, a large water bladder in his cockpit was stuck over on one side, so both his feet were on the right side of the boat, and the 20 pound water bladder was on the left. He did ok, but felt fairly uneasy in the rough conditions that had just capsized him, but was unable to sort it all out until he had finished the challenging crossing.

If you want to store stuff there, I'd go to the trouble to attach some straps to the floor of your cockpit, and strap the dromedary bag in place.

Personally I put it behind my seat.

Nate

 
 
  I have
  Posted by: paddlemore on Nov-18-12 9:07 PM (EST)
Its never been a problem, but I usually store it beyond my foot pegs.
 
 
  A consideration......
  Posted by: chodups on Nov-18-12 12:26 PM (EST)
https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/1atV0B257jfZD4BKFPbMDNMTjNZETYmyPJy0liipFm0?feat=directlink


Jon
http://3meterswell.blogspot.com
 
 
  Nice solution
  Posted by: rjd9999 on Nov-18-12 3:45 PM (EST)
With the suction cups/straps. Better, most likely, than any attempt to wedge an amorphous bag of water into a secure location or having it lie between legs.

As for rolling, I still don't think that water in a container (as long as it doesn't interfere with mobility) will have an affect on one's ability to roll. We're talking about 80 lbs. of water (about 37 kilos) and I've rolled boats with considerably more dead weight in them.

The way I see it, the container will either shift or not during the roll. If it shifts, it will simply fall to the lowest point of the boat during the roll, which may actually minimally facilitate rolling. If it doesn't, it would be no different than any other 80 lbs. of dead weight in the boat.

But to answer the question as to whether I've done this with a water bag sloshing under my legs, no, I haven't.

Rick
 
 
  30lb
  Posted by: kelvin1 on Nov-18-12 6:11 PM (EST)
-- Last Updated: Nov-19-12 7:15 AM EST --

The 13 liter bag will weigh 13kg, about 30lb.

 
 
  clean cockpit
  Posted by: nickjc on Nov-18-12 12:48 PM (EST)
Shawna Franklin from Body Boat Blade related a story during a rescue class: In a storm on the south coast of Iceland, her husband came out of his boat when he got hit by a large wave and couldn't get back in because of bags in the cockpit that had shifted. They ended up having to do a towed rescue in big surf conditions before they could rearrange his cockpit. After that they went back to the rule of nothing in the cockpit unsecured.
If you put something in make sure it's secure. Not just wedged in or tied with a piece of cord that could entrap you. And of course, practice your preferred rescue method to see if it causes problems. The only place I would put something would be behind the seat and lashed down.
 
 
  d rings
  Posted by: underhills on Nov-18-12 4:39 PM (EST)
I have 2 sets of NRS D rings that come attached to a patch then I glued one set in front of my feet and the other behind my back band. That way I can tie down anything I place inside my cockpit including water bladders and my paddle float.
 
 
  Losing water
  Posted by: kelvin1 on Nov-18-12 6:15 PM (EST)
This article about a Falklands trip demonstrates what is probably the biggest danger of carrying your water loose in the cockpit.
http://www.marcusdemuth.com/Pages/2009FalklandIslands.aspx
 
 
  water bags thoughts
  Posted by: gstamer on Nov-18-12 6:20 PM (EST)
Some of my peers prefer placing water bladders under their knees. I tried this once -- I hate of the feel of it (it felt confining) and it impeded my leg drive.

I put multiple dromedary bags behind my seat. Depending on the trip I will carry multiple 4 liter bags. The top bag has a dromedary hydration system to keep me hydrated while paddling (allowing a clean deck and no water weight on my back). Having the same bag for hydration and storage gives you more options should a bag fail.

I prefer multiple bags over a single bag. I agree that having "all eggs in one basket" is not the best plan. I haven't had any dromedaries leak but I have seen racoons chew through milk jugs to get water in the Everglades.

There isn't much room for the bags to shift behind the seat in my kayaks. I have capsized in dumping surf in Iceland and elsewhere with this setup and had no problem rolling or with the the load shifting.

I don't want bags that can leak in a hatch -- with all my dry gear (even if it is drybagged). Also, on a steep beach I like being able to remove my water bags INSTANTLY -- with that weight free, I can more easily pull the kayak up the beach. In one situation I almost had to throw my bags over a berm and quickly haul the boat to safety, before the next wave hit.

Greg Stamer
 
 
  Anchor points
  Posted by: gnarlydog on Nov-18-12 6:23 PM (EST)
I have never seen a 13lt Dromedary bag but I have several 10lt ones that I use on long trips.
One is SECURED to the bottom of the cockpit, just in front of the seat (behind the seat I place smaller items since a 10lt bag doesn't fit).
Securing the bag is imperative for me in case of a capsize. I have made 4 sturdy small saddles (from fibraglass) and epoxy glued them to the hull, inside the cockpit. Details with images here: http://gnarlydognews.blogspot.com.au/2009/07/shop-underdeck-storage.html
 
 
  clarify
  Posted by: lyngo on Nov-19-12 5:59 AM (EST)
I wouldn't do a long crossing or paddle all day in any kind of weather with a loose bag in the cockpit. I limit this setup to going from launch to first campsite and from place of water supply back to campsite, always a short distance. Lyn
 
 
  Northwater Bladder Anchor
  Posted by: Marshall on Nov-19-12 8:46 AM (EST)
Comes I pairs. Web daisy chain sewn onto hypalon. Glue in line along keel line starting in front if the seat. Puts the ballast weight right in line with the heaviest load in the kayak, the paddler.

See you on the water,
Marshall
The River Connection, Inc.
Hyde Park, NY
www.the-river-connection.com
hudsonriverpaddler.org
 
 
  Great idea!
  Posted by: bowler1 on Nov-19-12 5:16 PM (EST)
I have used them in a canoe before for tying down portage packs...never would have thought to use them in my kayak.

So what do you glue them in with? I have found Vynabond doesn't work well on kevlar canoes, so not sure if it will work on fiberglass.

Matt
 
 
  Vynabond.....
  Posted by: chodups on Nov-19-12 9:24 PM (EST)
....Vynabond has worked well for me on two glass boats. I did have an initial failure on my second boat, a Tempest, when I took a casual approach to surface preperation. Once I prepped the area appropriately the mounting tab adhered really well.

Jon
 
 
  Padeyes, G-Flex, 1/4
  Posted by: trilliumlake on Nov-19-12 5:18 PM (EST)
1) Position the bag in the cockpit, extending from the front bulkhead toward the seat.

2) Mark padeye lash-points corresponding to those on bag on the inside hull on either side plus center front & back. Better to have too many than too few; you can always skip a set of padeyes. Be careful not to position the padeyes where your heels point in from the footpegs, and not too close to the sides where they can interfere with your legs.

3) Glue padeyes at lash-points plus center front & rear with G-Flex. Position the padeyes longitudinally at the sides (parallel with side seam of kayak) and front & rear center padeyes laterally (perpendicular to side seam).

4) Starting with the center padeye near the bulkhead, run 1/4" bungee cord side to side through padeyes & over bag in a diamond pattern. Skip the front center padeye. Position the knot(s) near the bulkhead, as 1/4" knots can impinge on your feet/legs, especially in a narrow or low-profile boat.

5) Weave a non-stretchy strap or rope front to back loosely through the bungees where they cross in the middle so you can grab & lift the bungees all together to slide the bag in or out.

6) Attach a strap or cord with hook to front center padeye, to attach to first bungee crossover once the bag is in place, to prevent the bag from sliding forward (toward the seat).
 
 
  MSR bag mounting
  Posted by: joebhamilton on Nov-19-12 8:41 PM (EST)
I have mounted MSR 10m liter bags in the cockpit of my Epic V10S surfski and in the rear hatch of my Kaskazi Skua ARX and dumped both and the bags stayed in place.
I glued square back pack strap attachments I got from Campmor to both the V10S and Skua and used straps to hold the MSR bags in place.


For details see
http://www.kayakfishinghole.com/community/showthread.php?t=4278&highlight=Skua
 
 
  3M 5200 or 4200
  Posted by: Marshall on Nov-20-12 7:05 AM (EST)
These seem to stick just about anything together.

Other options exist as well, I'm sure.

See you on the water,
Marshall
The River Connection, Inc.
Hyde Park, NY
www.the-river-connection.com
Hudsonriverpaddler.org
 
 
  i DO NOT ROLL...
  Posted by: rikjohnson on Nov-20-12 1:22 PM (EST)
But I DO often carry a large MSR Dromadory bag under my thighs.
I laid the bag close to my seat where I wanted it (centered etc... then I marked the tie-down-holes in the bag.
Next I epoxied D-rings at those tie=down points.

All I have to do is to clip the bag to the d-rings and it stays secure.

As for rolling.... I'm a rec-paddler so the word is foreign to me.
 
 
  MSR bag mounting
  Posted by: joebhamilton on Nov-30-12 9:38 PM (EST)
My previous mounting link may not work
photo of my mounting an insulated Camelbak bag in my Epic surfski
[IMG]http://i965.photobucket.com/albums/ae140/joebh/IMG_1358.jpg[/IMG]
Photos of my mounting a MSR 10 liter bag in my Kaskazi Skua ARX inside read compartment with D ring mounting attachments
[IMG]http://i965.photobucket.com/albums/ae140/joebh/IMG_1541.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i965.photobucket.com/albums/ae140/joebh/IMG_1531.jpg[/IMG]

Both water bag mounting systems worked when I dumped my surfsi and Kaskazi.
The Kaskazi has dumped multiple times in the surf and the full water bag did not come loose
 
 
  I always carry mine behind the seat
  Posted by: bowrudder on Nov-30-12 9:50 PM (EST)
in the cockpit. Learned it from Steve Scherrer. Makes sense putting all the weight in the center of the boat. Don't know why you'd want to put it anywhere else.
 
 
  Dromedary bag placement
  Posted by: joebhamilton on Nov-30-12 10:14 PM (EST)
I mounted the MSR bag further back to move the Skua ARX CG rearward. The new model Skua ARX has a more rearward cockpit but the older model's CG was too far forward which affected the handling with the rudder up.
Mounting the rearward mounted MSR bag improves the older model Skua handling and gives me a backup water source.
 

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