Looking for real world comparisons on these two boats.
Looking at an RX Argosy and a tuffweave Wilderness. I know, not exactly apples to apples, but the different layups brings the weights under 45# which is where I set my limit for a solo boat.
Main use will be multi night river tripping, secondary use some ADK trips, and possibly a BWCAW trip.
I know the Argosy would be better for the river and the wilderness for the lakes, but which one will do what it wasn't designed for better?
The wilderness does have some rocker, and is deeper than the Argosy. And by simple math the Argosy has a higher length to width ratio. Probably would be offset by the better layup of the wilderness.
Thanks for any feedback.
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|Table of Contents|
|Messages in this Topic|
The math is not so simple|
Posted by: kayamedic on Oct-21-12 11:22 AM (EST)
Wenonah does not specify waterline lengths. The Argosy is a sub 14 foot boat. Those stem layouts are extreme. They do not count for hull speed.
More on heeling problems|
Posted by: guideboatguy on Oct-21-12 9:57 PM (EST)
I mentioned this on another thread recently. Many canoes don't need to be "heeled to the rail" to free the stems, because they stems lift "enough" with just moderate leaning of the boat. Unlike these OTHER boats, Wenonahs have their maximum width concentrated within a very small portion of the overall length, and heeling them only buries the midsection, and of course when that happens, the stems don't lift, or at least they don't lift enough. Don't expect either of these boats to do as most other canoes do, and become much more maneuverable when leaned a moderate amount. They won't.
Posted by: c2g on Oct-22-12 6:15 PM (EST)
I've owned a Prism, a Voyager, and a Wilderness and all of them responded well to a moderate lean. They wouldn't spin on a dime, but they weren't supposed to. I found it very simple to edge the boats a bit to carve turn, and my experience has been that they can be heeled enough to make them noticeably more maneuverable, although it took a deliberate effort unlike some other boats that heel pretty effortlessly.
Not the Prism I owned...|
Posted by: Kanoo on Oct-24-12 12:30 AM (EST)
Even with the opposite gunwale on my shoulder, the Prism was just barely free.
not necessarily free|
Posted by: c2g on Oct-24-12 8:02 PM (EST)
You don't have to free the stems to get a boat to turn faster, as I'm sure you know.
Posted by: windwalker on Oct-22-12 9:00 PM (EST)
Reading the reviews this guy thinks the Argosy is a good Freestyle boat and likes to be heeled? I guess everyone has their own opinion.
Written by a FreeStyler I have never met|
Posted by: kayamedic on Oct-22-12 9:36 PM (EST)
Posted by: CEWilson on Oct-21-12 4:52 PM (EST)
You haven't mentioned what the boat will have to float; you, gear, dog? in lbs.
Posted by: yatipope on Oct-21-12 8:16 PM (EST)
I just returned from a 4/day river paddle trip in my Argosy. Actually I made four daytrips and camped shuttled back to retrieve the boat and gear each day. I did numerous class II and a couple III rapids. I was lightly packed and when the Argosy is not loaded, it can handle class II and occasional III because the stems are barely in the water and therefore it maneuvers very good. I ran the Green, Tuck, and Little Tennessee in NC and the Tyger in SC. I know that with over 250lbs the boat is far less manueverable but tracks well with the stems well submerged. In other words I would NOT make a multi-day gear-loaded river voyage where class II+ or higher rapids are expected to be run. I do LOVE this canoe though for what it does for me. Great for daytrip river/rapid running OR multiday easy river or lake travel.
Posted by: windwalker on Oct-21-12 8:48 PM (EST)
I weigh in at 162# and around another 40-45# for gear.
Rocker is not a market ploy|
Posted by: kayamedic on Oct-21-12 10:36 PM (EST)
Posted by: Glenn_MacGrady on Oct-22-12 5:39 PM (EST)
Weak because I have only been in each boat for short period of time, never with a load.
From a non-kneeler...|
Posted by: Al_A on Oct-22-12 10:22 PM (EST)
Original post didn't say what kind of rivers. In any river that's class 1 or which has only occasional class 2, I would always opt for the boat that tracks better. I can make a decent tracking canoe maneuver well a lot easier than making a highly maneuverable boat track well. On the Ozark streams I usually paddle, I'd opt for the Wilderness strongly over the Argosy, and it would seem to me to be the better boat for lake paddling, and hold more gear easier.
Tracking Verse Yaw|
Posted by: CEWilson on Oct-23-12 10:26 AM (EST)
Course keeping. tracking is often misunderstood. The best computed indication of course keeping in block co-efficient; the block composed of a hull's waterline length, it's waterline width and draft, all in the same units. The less of that block the hull fills, the better it will track. To simplify we can just the length to width ratio since draft is pretty similar; USCA racers have a L/W ratio of 7. Most solo canoes have numbers between 6 and 7 so can be expected to track pretty well.
Posted by: pblanc on Oct-23-12 11:21 AM (EST)
I have paddled an Argosy some. Not my favorite boat, but it would probably suit your purposes pretty well. I haven't paddled a Wilderness at all, but I'm pretty certain I would go with the Argosy if it came down to a choice between those two.
Interesting conversation, I love it|
Posted by: windwalker on Oct-23-12 12:42 PM (EST)
Intended river - West branch Susquehanna, from Cherry Tree to the Susquehanna.
Kneeling in Argosy MUCH|
Posted by: yatipope on Oct-23-12 2:58 PM (EST)
Conversation came up about kneeling and if you have an aversion to doing so!? If you are thinking of an Argosy AND whitewater,...kneeling is a CERTAINTY! I just assumed it was known but regardless I don't mind doing so since I have the knee pads and flotation in my Argosy. Furthermore the pronounced tumblehome WILL put you in the drink if you take a wave of any significance broadside. The pleasure of paddling a Wenonah with the tumblehome does have its drawbacks! Interested in knowing who pBlanc was referring to about a BS review of the Argosy! HMMM
Posted by: pblanc on Oct-23-12 3:37 PM (EST)
Posted by: yatipope on Oct-23-12 5:34 PM (EST)
I totally agree with your critique of the review and I still feel if one were to have one solo canoe for all possible purposes,..(some whitewater, some lake, some cruising and some canoe-camping) the Argosy is hard to beat!
SOLD your SRT! - Rivers - Tribalism|
Posted by: Glenn_MacGrady on Oct-23-12 3:07 PM (EST)
Windwalker, you sold your SRT? I don't think I've ever said this, but your review of SRT was a significant influence on my decision to investigate that superb hull. Every year I appreciate its sophistication and versatility more and more, and I now paddle almost nothing else on any kind of water.
The Canadian Stroke does not have a|
Posted by: kayamedic on Oct-23-12 5:45 PM (EST)
full inwater recovery. Just a little corner grab with an upward slice.
Posted by: windwalker on Oct-23-12 9:02 PM (EST)
In Ed Gertler's book, Keystone Canoeing he lists class II- rapids on the upper stretches. And At Cherry Tree the river is only a very narrow creek. I would most likely get on it at higher levels to help move things along. I am leaning (pun intended) towards a faster boat rather than a turny boat. Right now that is the Wilderness, but may have a lead on a more interesting boat...
Posted by: baldpaddler on Oct-23-12 8:49 PM (EST)
in the last of 4 Raystown rendesvous I attended I found that I spent most of my timein a borrowed SRT.
It is very good to hear...|
Posted by: canoeswithduckheads on Oct-24-12 3:40 PM (EST)
...from you Michael. I shall always remember those incredibly beautiful wood paddles (especially the ones using the lacewood veneers) and canoe you had made and brought to the Raystown gathering in 2004:
Posted by: windwalker on Oct-24-12 8:20 PM (EST)
Wow this post is sure bringing back lots of memories, very cool! Thanks Guys.
Posted by: yatipope on Oct-24-12 9:38 PM (EST)
I owned a tuff-weave Rendezvous and paddled a royalex version and they are significantly different paddling boats with different specs. I really enjoyed the composite version and have heard lots of complaints about the royalex version.
Posted by: c2g on Oct-25-12 8:38 PM (EST)
I paddled both the Royalex and composite versions one right after the other. There is quite a bit of difference between the two, with the composite being a significantly better boat.
Eric Nyre used to say that |
Posted by: g2d on Oct-25-12 10:28 PM (EST)
the Rendezvous had to be carefully trimmed and set up to do its best, and that Royalex versions were more in need of tuning than composite versions.
Anecdotes and Fit |
Posted by: CEWilson on Oct-26-12 9:20 AM (EST)
Posted by: windwalker on Oct-26-12 9:27 PM (EST)
RX Wildfire = Yellowstone Solo|
Posted by: pblanc on Oct-26-12 10:04 PM (EST)
T clarify for Mike|
Posted by: kayamedic on Oct-27-12 8:01 AM (EST)
The composite WildFire and you played in (I think at MFS many years ago) is not quite the same as the RX WildFire(YS) especially in the Wilds symmetrical stern bow rocker changed to a skegged stern.
Wildfire vs. YS|
Posted by: pblanc on Oct-27-12 11:10 AM (EST)
I think the L/W|
Posted by: kayamedic on Oct-27-12 9:27 PM (EST)
ratio of the YS is more like 5.8 and the same for the Argosy.
L/W according to CEW; Wildfire|
Posted by: Glenn_MacGrady on Oct-27-12 11:10 PM (EST)
According to my 2009 version of Charlie's chart, the Argosy, Wilderness and Yellowstone all have a L/W of 6.0.
Sounds about right|
Posted by: kayamedic on Oct-28-12 9:29 AM (EST)
None have changed design.
Posted by: CEWilson on Oct-28-12 4:40 PM (EST)
On my way to Lake Placid I stopped by Adirondack Lakes and Trails and put a tape measure down the keel line of a composite Wenonah Wilderness. 177 inches, divided by 30 is L/W of 5.9.
You can get the Argosy in|
Posted by: sohojacques on Oct-28-12 5:08 PM (EST)
Kevlar Ultralight Argosy|
Posted by: BuckeyePaddler on Oct-28-12 5:18 PM (EST)
I have one, and I'd be willing to measure, too. Let me know where to measure if you'd like this info.
estimating waterline length with a tape|
Posted by: CEWilson on Oct-28-12 6:16 PM (EST)
Just lay the tape down the keel line of an upside down hull, hold it tight and straight. For Argosy, have a friend hold the end of the tape at estimated 3.5 inches up st the stern due to minimal stern rocker, then estimate ~2.5" up from tape to the bow, compensating for bow rocker, and read the number.
Tripping in Wildfire and Yellowstone Sol|
Posted by: cliffjacobson on Oct-31-12 12:30 PM (EST)
I've put thousands of miles on composite Bell Wildfires and Yellowstone solo's. I just love these boats. Anyone who says they're not up to long river trips with technical rapids (up to high Class II) either doesn't know how to pack or needs to learn how to paddle. These boats track well, turn instantly and run dry in waves up to two feet high. Add a spray cover and polished whitewater technique and they'll surprise you in bigger stuff. Both canoes are very similar; paddle one then the other and you'll forget which boat you're in. The YS does seem to run drier in chop and it carries a bit more weight more gracefully--but the differences are not significant. The Royalex version of the YS is a wonderful canoe also. It's quite fast for an RX solo; it turns instantly and it runs dry. You won't be disappointed to own one. It is, however, heavy--about 45 pounds if I recall; the 29-34 pounds of a composite WF or YS is a better plan where there are portages. Here's a short list of rivers I've paddled with the composite versions: Steel and Kopka(Ontario); Little Missouri (N.Dakota); Green(Utah); Rio Grande(TX); Buffalo (Arkansas); BWCA/Quetico. These were all minimum 7 day trips with full gear. No problems!
Thanks for that info, Cliff.|
Posted by: Yanoer on Oct-31-12 5:40 PM (EST)
I'm picking up a black gold Yellowstone Solo with aluminum gunwales in a week or so and am actually hoping I'll like it better than the kevlar Deluxe Wildfire that I have.
Posted by: kayamedic on Oct-31-12 8:08 PM (EST)
has a Yellowstone Solo. Yes I read that it is ticketed WildFire. My friends who have a fleet of them in Ohio have several of them. RX.
Wildfire vs Yellowstone(aka Rx Wildfire)|
Posted by: TommyC1 on Nov-01-12 9:25 AM (EST)
Very different hulls. No comparison really.
Posted by: windwalker on Oct-28-12 10:08 PM (EST)
I went and test paddled the wildfire on a lake yesterday afternoon. In a one word description - predictable. It did everything I asked, and didn't give me any grief. Felt fine flat or on a rail.
Posted by: CEWilson on Oct-28-12 11:37 PM (EST)
With the skill to control that loose stern, you probably got the best of the litter.
Got to like a happy ending.|
Posted by: sohojacques on Oct-29-12 4:17 AM (EST)
One more |
Posted by: pgeorg on Oct-29-12 11:33 AM (EST)
endorsement. We recently brought an old Wildfire into our household for my wife to paddle. She had been practicing freestyle moves in an Argosy. The Wildfire is a big improvement. It turns easier and heels further and more predictably. And, it feels faster. Should have started with the Wildfire. We'll sell the Argosy in the spring.
Wildfire. Not Wildfire. Confusion.|
Posted by: Glenn_MacGrady on Oct-29-12 1:25 PM (EST)
No one has any idea what canoe is being discussed when someone says Bell "Wildfire". That's because Bell immorally named two different canoes with the same name, causing massive customer confusion that still continues 10 years later, and that borders on fraud.
It is a Royalex Yellowstone Solo|
Posted by: pblanc on Oct-29-12 6:06 PM (EST)
Posted by: pblanc on Oct-29-12 6:18 PM (EST)
It sure looks to me that the proud stems on that boat overhang the LWL by more than a combined 6". I would have guessed that the LWL of the Argosy was somewhat under 14' as Kim said.
I think his Wildfire is Rx|
Posted by: Yanoer on Oct-29-12 1:10 PM (EST)
from what I read earlier in the discussion.
Posted by: kayamedic on Oct-29-12 6:05 PM (EST)
Karen always liked a boat too big for her, but I never remember her paddling a Wild. Always a Flash. But that was too big for her too technically.
Karen Knight in a Viper 12|
Posted by: pblanc on Oct-29-12 6:08 PM (EST)
There is some footage in the video "Drill Time" of Karen paddling a Viper 12 OC-1, which would be a very big boat for her indeed.
RX verse composite hulls|
Posted by: CEWilson on Oct-29-12 5:48 PM (EST)
Lotsa replies huh!|
Posted by: yatipope on Oct-30-12 12:58 AM (EST)
I bet windwalker didn't expect such numerous, thorough and experienced number of replies to this thread! Very informative and lot of experience here! For one, I certainly do appreciate the knowledge of most replies here! Thanks
It's more than just mold differences|
Posted by: Glenn_MacGrady on Oct-30-12 1:52 AM (EST)
Posted by: windwalker on Oct-30-12 5:13 AM (EST)
So what do I have? The HIN says it's from 2001, it's green RX and has a Bell Wildfire sticker.
Is it Royalex?|
Posted by: pblanc on Oct-30-12 9:12 AM (EST)
If it is a Royalex boat with a Wildfire label it is the hull with differential rocker that was later renamed the Yellowstone Solo.
Your royalex Wildfire = Yellowstone Solo|
Posted by: Yanoer on Oct-30-12 10:56 AM (EST)
pblanc: my W/L length for the composite |
Posted by: sohojacques on Oct-30-12 5:00 PM (EST)
Argosy is a rough estimate at best. I tried to include an appropriate amount of stem depth as per Charlie's instructions. Put a bantam weight paddler in one with no gear and I'm sure it would be less. But load it up and the W/L length would be more like 14'2", maybe even topping out at 14'3". Charlie's the closest well get to a constant on this. So until he puts a tape over one...
Posted by: CEWilson on Oct-31-12 11:50 AM (EST)
I was hoping...|
Posted by: sohojacques on Oct-31-12 10:23 PM (EST)
you wouldn't say that. :)
If you really want to do it|
Posted by: pblanc on Nov-01-12 1:50 PM (EST)
and you have a sizable flat surface like a patio, deck, or driveway you can set the boat on that. It seems to make most sense measuring the LWL at the same waterline that the BWL is measured. I seem to recall from somewhere that the BWL for the Argosy given by Wenonah is at the 3" waterline, but it could be 4" or something in between.
pretty much how bottom scuff|
Posted by: kayamedic on Nov-01-12 1:53 PM (EST)
patches are marked off.
Here in Indiana|
Posted by: pblanc on Nov-01-12 6:20 PM (EST)
finding a level surface is not much of a problem.
Posted by: CEWilson on Nov-01-12 8:41 PM (EST)
But with differential rocker we do not want the keel line level, or averaged level....
WildFire, YellowStone Solo, RX YSS Speed|
Posted by: CEWilson on Nov-01-12 12:37 PM (EST)
Posted by: kayamedic on Nov-01-12 12:57 PM (EST)
It justifies owning all the iterations of YSS and Wild.