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  Brand new Tempest oil canning?
  Posted by: old_user on Sep-28-12 12:37 AM (EST)
   Category: Kayaks 

After renting and borrowing boats for a couple years I finally decided to get my own kayak. After many demos, I excitedly settled on a poly Tempest 165 and got a seemingly great deal on a new 2011 one from a local dealer. As I was loading it onto my car I realized that it had two rather large hull deformities running the width of the boatÖone right under the seat and the other a few feet fore.

After reading up on oil-canning in plastic boats it seems like that is what happened here. I understand that they are somewhat common on plastic kayaks especially if stored or transported incorrectly at high temperatures (Iím in Maryland, so the summers get warm). I was, though surprised to see this on a new boat.

Iíve taken the boat out once and didnít notice any tracking issues, though conditions were windy and choppy so I had a hard time telling for sure. I also spoke to my dealer about this and he said it was relatively normal and shouldnít affect performance. He did though offer to take the boat back if I was unhappy with it.

Iím curious to hear folksí thoughts on whether or not this is a problem. Is this a sign of more serious problems even if Iím able to fix the indentations using a heat lamp or something like that?

Thanks for the help!

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Messages in this Topic

 

  maybe
  Posted by: Peter-CA on Sep-28-12 1:21 AM (EST)
If it wasn't a brand new boat, I'd automatically say not a problem. It likely won't affect the usability of the boat at all.

But I could also understand thinking that you don't want to buy a new boat at new boat prices like this.

truthfully, if it is slight, it could have just been the boat sitting on a rack in head (not even strapped down). And some more heat on it without the weight of the boat on that spot and they dimples will likely disappear.

 
 
  I would approach the dealer about the
  Posted by: ezwater on Sep-28-12 1:56 AM (EST)
issue, in case it applies to your boat but not to other examples of the same model.

I had a similar problem with my poly Necky Looksha Sport, but I cut a foam wall that I can shove into the zone that tends to dent. I use that wall when transporting the boat. So far, the oilcanning or pooching hasn't occurred while paddling, but if it did, I would install a permanent wall like I have in my ww kayaks.
 
 
  My new WS Zephyr
  Posted by: t.george on Sep-28-12 8:36 AM (EST)
had a fairly pronounced flat spot just ahead of the seat that took out all the V from the hull. I didn't notice it when I picked the boat up,(I was more concerned about good fitting hatches). I cut a "form" from an old piece of plywood that wedged under the coming and ran a strap around the whole mess. I put it on whenever storing it for a week and it went away.

Since you've contacted your dealer and he's willing to work with you, I think I'd give the hatches a good water test, look everything over real good and see if the flat spots will go away. WS quality control can be poor, so you may be better off dealing with the boat you have.

Best of luck, t.george
 
 
  Give it back
  Posted by: mintjulep on Sep-28-12 8:40 AM (EST)
It might be common, but it sure isn't right.

A new boat should be perfect. The hull shape should be the correct hull shape. No dents, no deformations, not bent, not scratched, not flawed, not damaged.

The dealer is offering to do the right thing by taking it back, so give it back and get a perfect new boat. After all, that's what you paid for.
 
 
  Ugh...
  Posted by: NewbTastic on Sep-28-12 10:18 AM (EST)
I can't see paying new boat prices and then taking home a boat that's significantly oil-canned from Day 1. =[

Perhaps your dealer didn't store the boat right, or perhaps Wilderness System's quality control isn't what it should be. Could've even have happened in shipping.

But the one thing you know is that YOU didn't cause it. So why should YOU have to accept a less-than-perfect new boat that you paid good money for?

Your dealer should make it right, one way or another.

 
 
  got a good deal
  Posted by: desertdave on Sep-28-12 11:39 AM (EST)
on a 165 for my girlfriend. It had two indentations from storage on racks built from 2x4's. After some time, say a month, those indentations are gone. As I've read on P-net, sometimes plastic will return to it's 'as-molded' shape when given a little time and stored properly.

I use straps, placed at bulkheads, boat held on it's side, for storage.

I am glad that I didn't over-react when I first discovered the 'problem'.
 
 
  Dents
  Posted by: magooch on Sep-28-12 12:37 PM (EST)
Would you accept a new car with ready made dents? Why should a boat be any different? If the price was based on "as is" condition, then the dealer should have pointed out the deformity.

Personally, I would be very skeptical about the quality of any boat that deforms by just sitting there. Two of my boats that I have had for many years are polyethylene and neither has changed shape, dented, oil-canned, warped, or even faded.

If I were you, I would take the boat back to the dealer and get a new boat, but probably not of the same brand.
 
 
  How it's stored/supported, matters.
  Posted by: Yanoer on Sep-28-12 2:11 PM (EST)
You, apparently, have a good system.

Someone else storing the same boats that you have, but in a different way, may not have the same desirable results that you have.
 
 
  when you get a new boat
  Posted by: desertdave on Sep-28-12 2:22 PM (EST)
for 36% off MSRP, with all the benefits of a new boat, including warranty, you can afford to be patient and see if the storage dents pop out. Which they did.

I have had two kayaks replaced under warranty, by the same dealer, so I was not very concerned about how I would be treated after the sale.

YMMV
 
 
  Might or might not be an issue
  Posted by: Kocho on Sep-28-12 2:49 PM (EST)
-- Last Updated: Sep-28-12 2:56 PM EST --

When I bought my P&H Delphin 155 it came with decent size dents from being displayed on rigid stands in the showroom. These were very obvius and not minor at all, but I thought they were not permanent and I did not think the plastic was deformed beyond repair. I had corrected very similar dents on the same kind of boat in the past so I hoped to do the same with this boat or return it if unsuccessful. Because the boat was not full price (way far from it, actually) and the dents were not terrible and all else was good, I was willing to accept the condition.

I was able to eliminate them with heat - careful application of my heat gun and leave it to cool off with some yoga matts in the cockpit to keep the shape while it cooled off. The dents are no longer there.

I would be annoyed if they remained, however. I've seen a brand new Tempest 170 on display with such severe dents that I would never buy that kayak even at a very low price - the plastic on these would be so stretched as to be a permanent deformation. Large dents weaken the already weak rigidity of a long plastic kayak like the Tempest and you might actually feel the effect if you go out in rough water. I don't think it will have much effect on speed unless you paddle full speed all the time (in which case it would matter some).

So, decide for yourself how much it bothers you. And if the dents seem minor, see if some heat can bring them back to shape, then store it properly so that they don't come back. Just be careful with heat - you can do new damage if you overdo it...

 
 
  take it back and get another .......
  Posted by: pilotwingz on Sep-28-12 6:58 PM (EST)
..... agree totally with mintjulip and others , your boat should be flawless as new , not deformed in anyway .

It's been said that sometimes the cooling down process before being removed from the mould was not performed properly . Other times it's said that the poly is to thin in some areas and too thick in others , uneven rotomoulding process .

Now I wouldn't say one of these things is the absolute cause of your boats condition , but it is a new boat and something is not right and caused the deformation ... in any case , get one that's correct to start with .

I'll bet the deformation will get worse and worse as times goes on , something in the build process made it weak in certain areas , and that shouldn't be .

The dealer knows this , so return it for a straight one or get another brand .
 
 
  Don't necessarily agree
  Posted by: rpg51 on Sep-28-12 11:27 PM (EST)
that "I'll bet the deformation will get worse and worse as times goes on , something in the build process made it weak in certain areas , and that shouldn't be" My experience is the opposite. These boats will get temporary deformations like the OP describes all the time and they will go away with a little heat. You have to be careful to store these boats on edge, not on bottom. But it is almost always a temporary situation. .
 
 
  +1
  Posted by: t.george on Sep-28-12 11:46 PM (EST)
 
 
  I guess if it were me
  Posted by: rpg51 on Sep-29-12 7:31 AM (EST)
-- Last Updated: Sep-29-12 7:35 AM EST --

I would try the standard techniques to remove the hull deformations myself being careful not to damage the Kayak in the process and at the same time I would talk to the dealer and say that I am considering returning the boat if the hull deformations are permanent and see if he is willing to put some effort into heating the area and eliminating the deformations himself if my efforts did not work. After that, and in unlikely event that the boat has permanent hull deformations, I would return the boat.

I brought my brand new Zephyr home last fall and stored it for several weeks in my garage sitting on the floor on its bottom. Bad idea. To my dismay I discovered that the hull had developed significant deformation that was not present when I picked it up at EMS. However, I was able to remove the deformations with towels and boiling water and they have not returned after a year now of more careful storage. I love the boat.

 
 
  Geez, all this...
  Posted by: NewbTastic on Sep-29-12 8:08 AM (EST)
... is sort making me not want to buy rotomold ever again. o_0

 
 
  Read the definition of "plastic".
  Posted by: string on Sep-29-12 9:39 AM (EST)
 
 
  Yep
  Posted by: LeeG on Sep-29-12 8:19 PM (EST)
 
 
  Not that simple...
  Posted by: NewbTastic on Sep-29-12 10:45 PM (EST)
...ABS/thermoform doesn't seem to have these problems, or at least it's not common.

And that's plastic, too.



 
 
  I have purchased 2
  Posted by: bac on Sep-29-12 10:10 AM (EST)
I have purdchased a Tempest 170 and a Chatham 17 (one new, one used .. discounted heavily) with significant oilcans. Both dents came out with hot water and weights. No issues since the repairs. These boats need to be stored on their sides or in a soft sling
 
 
  special deal?
  Posted by: gstamer on Sep-29-12 11:05 AM (EST)
Many boats with scratches and minor dents (from storage) are sold at a discount. Did you get a special deal for this particular kayak? Or can you swap the boat for a different kayak in stock?

If this was a special deal you might just want to live with it (and try to fix the dents).

It does sound like this kayak is dented from storage (not the same as oil-canning, BTW). Most likely it will pop out as others have said.

Dents or not, this isn't a racing kayak so there's no sense to worry about speed loss. There's much faster kayaks out there if that is your priority. Dents on the bottom of the hull should not affect tracking for touring.

Plastic scratches and dents easily. If you use the kayak, in a year the bottom of the kayak will look like you attacked it with a cheese grater. The good news is that you probably won't care.

Having said all that, if you aren't happy with it, take it back.

Greg Stamer
 
 
  Not necessarily.
  Posted by: magooch on Sep-29-12 11:28 AM (EST)
Scratches and dents are not inevitable on poly boats, or any others for that matter. I've owned plastic boats for years and they still look like brand new. As a matter of fact, the two poly boats I still have are better than when they were brand new. I've made some fairly minor modifications and most of all, I've always stored, transported and handled these boats with loving care. I treat them exactly the same as my composites. Yes, they are pampered; that's just the way I am. And my boats assuredly have more miles on them than most.
 
 
  Maybe so, but
  Posted by: rpg51 on Sep-29-12 1:00 PM (EST)
most plastic boats, including mine for sure, end up with LOTS of scratches from use. Its the Felix and Oscar thing played out in the world of kayaks. I'm definitely an Oscar. In my view it takes incredible effort and care to avoid scratches in a plastic kayak. On the other hand, scratches from normal use don't cause any problems whatsoever, inmho. Also, if he did any paddling in white water or rock gardening I doubt even Felix could avoid getting tons scratches in a plastic kayak.

I see the dents as another matter because even though it isn't a racing kayak they still bug me and it is not hard to avoid the dents - just store the kayak on edge.
 
 
  agree
  Posted by: radiomix on Sep-29-12 3:46 PM (EST)
But my composite boats have scratches.

Ryan L.
 
 
  Different perspective
  Posted by: gstamer on Sep-30-12 10:34 AM (EST)
Depending on what kayaking means to you, and where you paddle, it isn't always possible/practical/advisable to avoid scratches, no matter how careful you are.

My flatwater racing boats don't have a scratch (save for the occasional encounter with a submerged log) but my touring boats don't have that luxury.

Good luck finding a well-used poly white water kayak with a "showroom smooth" hull or an unblemished touring hull that has been used in shallow bays around oysters, for playing in rock-gardens, for surf landings on rocky beaches and for assisted rescue practice, etc, etc... While in some cases you can gently exit your kayak before you land, in many situations this is not possible or is life-threatening.

I treat the hulls of my touring boats like the bed of a work-truck -- they have a job to do. That said, all my kayaks (poly, glass and carbon) are "babied" by being rinsed after use and stored in slings out of the sun. As always YMMV.

Greg Stamer
 
 
  Deformed boat
  Posted by: ppine on Sep-30-12 1:26 AM (EST)
Kayaks and canoes get wrecked often from tying them down too tightly on racks and improper transport. sounds like that is what happened with yours. Take it back and get a new boat. If the dents are easy to fix with some heat, the dealer will have no problem fixing your boat.
 
 
  I've had a dozen poly boats and they all
  Posted by: suntan on Sep-30-12 4:23 PM (EST)
popped in and out. The best was a brand new Perception Acadia which still popped, just not as much. The new Acadias are thinner and pop as much as any other boat. The true value of poly is in rock bashing. Its the only material that can take it and oil caning is just something you have to accept.
 

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