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Advice, Suggestions and General Help New Topic Printer Friendly Version

  New Tiderace Boats Coming
  Posted by: NewbTastic on Sep-22-12 5:56 AM (EST)
   Category: Kayaks 

Word comes via the Nuremburg Paddle Expo.
(odd place for a big Paddle Expo, yes? it's not particularly near any big water)

Apparently, Tiderace has at least 3 new boats coming:

- Its Pace fast expedition boat, but in a shorter 17' length ('Pace-M'?).
- The Pace again, but in a quite petite 15' length ('Pace-S'?).
- The Vortex, basically its Xtra playboat in rotomold, and TR's first plastic boat.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-YrfYrgt7XZU/UFo4dGWQdDI/AAAAAAAAENI/CiVkEetT1nw/s1600/IMG_5610.jpg

http://www.rounditalycruise.it/2012/09/paddle-expo-2012-seconda-giornata.html#more

(page is in Italian, but Google Chrome will translate if you tell it to)


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Messages in this Topic

 

  I likey...
  Posted by: NewbTastic on Sep-22-12 6:00 PM (EST)
Personally I think this is pretty cool.

The Pace coming in multiple sizes means they're 'all in' on the fast-expedition boat concept (even Rockpool's Taran doesn't come in multiple sizes yet, though there are rumors a 'shorty Taran' is coming).

And Tiderace getting into plastic boats/a lower price point is pretty nice, considering that some other 'premium Brit brands' don't do that/barely do that (NDK, Rockpool).

 
 
  Where are they making these?
  Posted by: nebeginner on Sep-22-12 7:11 PM (EST)
Who is building them?

That will determine pricing ... and we know these folks like healthy margin. Their glass boats are priced close to UK, Europe, and North American made boats, so we know they are taking a bigger margin compared to the these other companies.
 
 
  But is there...
  Posted by: NewbTastic on Sep-23-12 8:42 PM (EST)
...really that much wiggle room in the price for rotomold boats?

Even premium ones from the top British makes generally cost $1500-2000. Don't think Tiderace can really price the Vortex much above that, and I don't see why they'd price below that either.

Far as their other new boats go (the 2 new Paces, which I assume would be 'glass), I'd think they'd be made by Cobra in Thailand, like their other composite boats.

 
 
  utterly wrong!
  Posted by: no_kayak on Sep-30-12 12:29 PM (EST)
I don't know where you get your info from, but the cost to Tiderace in building their boats means their margins are considerably lower than those of other British manufacturers.

The first step in the logic, is that Valley, PH, Rockpool and NDK all make their boats in-house, so they save on the cost of production by not having to make a third party company some profit for doing so.

The second is that the materials and processes used by Cobra are much more expensive than those used by those other manufacturers in producing the boats.

The third is that Cobra are not a cheap place to build boats. The Cobra built Tiderace boats are far, far higher specification than the ones built in Finland by Charger and it is not cheaper to build them in Thailand than it was in Finland.

The fourth is that Tiderace must include the cost of shipping boats by 20' or 40' container from Thailand before the boats reach either Europe or the US, whereas the others are based in Europe and have much lower shipping costs.

Frankly, I wish people who didn't have the foggiest clueregarding what they're talking about would stop talking as if they did.
 
 
  poor nebeginner...
  Posted by: NewbTastic on Oct-01-12 10:06 AM (EST)
Geez, don't be shy, tell us what you REALLY think, No_Kayak. =D

Btw, while everyone tells me that Cobra builds with truly excellent quality and materials (and that does cost $$), wouldn't the (much?) lower labor rates in Thailand offset that to a great extent, in terms of cost of manufacture?

OTOH, and as you mention, higher shipping costs and the need for Tiderace to pay Cobra a profit for their services would further cut into any cost advantage.

It's possible that the whole thing is more or less a wash, and Tiderace simply thought Cobra could do it with higher quality than most anyone else in the world, and with a lot less hassle to TR than TR having to set up a world-class boat factory in-house from scratch. Perhaps that kind of stuff doesn't interest Aled, and he'd rather focus on designing boats.

But I certainly don't know for sure, and perhaps unlike nebeginner, I'll 100% freely admit that I'm just speculatin'.


 
 
  Not ...
  Posted by: nebeginner on Oct-02-12 7:45 AM (EST)
.... He simply got emotional, and jumped to conclusions. Defensive. No problem.

I know nothing about boat building etc, but I do know that increasing government regulations and requirements on glass and plastics manufacturing, combined with labor costs, have driven many US builders off shore. I would think, but don't know, that much the same has happened in England and other places.

A simple google search reveals all you need to know at a glance on those same issues in Thailand.

I do however have some knowledge of business, and can say with some confidence that no manufacturer decides shift their manufacturing off shore lightly. And the key decision is profitability. That gain has to be significant enough to off-set many factors.

I have worked for a few of the world's largest manufacturers for over 25 years, and been involved in these very kinds of decisions. If it were a wash, manufacturing would have stayed where it was in all cases. The profit gain in all cases was significant.


"But I certainly don't know for sure, and perhaps unlike nebeginner, I'll 100% freely admit that I'm just speculatin'."

My original post was brief and could be read as nothing but speculation as well.

But I'll admit it is getting a bit annoying when someone continues to bash excellent boats based on their POV that Cobra makes superior boats, and anyone that suggests they are merely on par with other manufactures get the response like I received.
 
 
  Well now, someone is upset ...
  Posted by: nebeginner on Oct-02-12 7:27 AM (EST)
"I don't know where you get your info from, but the cost to Tiderace in building their boats means their margins are considerably lower than those of other British manufacturers."

Where do you get yours from?

"The first step in the logic, is that Valley, PH, Rockpool and NDK all make their boats in-house, so they save on the cost of production by not having to make a third party company some profit for doing so."

But their labor cost is night and day compared to Thailand. And in England, as in the US, there cost of manufacturing is considerably higher due to labor and environmental laws. Cost of materials are higher due to the same reasons. Isn't the whole proposition for shifting production to an extreme low cost market like Thailand is that it is more profitable?

"materials and processes used by Cobra are much more expensive than those used by those other manufacturers in producing the boats."

How so? Where do the materials come from? Would they not be cheaper in a county with lower import fees and less restrictions? And cheaper still for materials that could be sourced locally, based on the lower production costs?

Or are you saying the materials themselves are more better? If so, how do you know that?

Or is the process is is more expensive in Thailand? How so? Isn't labor dirt cheap? And lower government rules and regulations on manufacturing, i.e safety, use and disposal of chemicals, etc, cheaper in Thailand? Isn't that why Cobra is there and not in the US, Canada, England, or France, in the first place?

"The third is that Cobra are not a cheap place to build boats. The Cobra built Tiderace boats are far, far higher specification than the ones built in Finland by Charger and it is not cheaper to build them in Thailand than it was in Finland. "

Higher specifications? "far far" higher? How so? Or is it again the cost of labor and manufacturing ... this time in Finland ... and the "far far higher" specifications imposed on Finish manufacturers by way of environmental and labor laws?

"cost of shipping boats by 20' or 40' container from Thailand before the boats reach either Europe or the US, whereas the others are based in Europe and have much lower shipping costs."

But again, the proposition of Asian manufacturing factors that in, right?

"Frankly, I wish people who didn't have the foggiest clueregarding what they're talking about would stop talking as if they did."

Hey, I'm just questioning, not trying to state facts. You seem to be doing that. How so? Please explain your knowledge of these things. That perhaps may explain why this topic has ruffled your feathers so much. You seem very defensive about Tiderace quality ... trying to paint Cobra as some shining light for superior glass manufacturing.

They may be, but one simple fact I do know: no manufacturer goes to the opposite side of the globe to manufacture their product unless there is a significant profit opportunity to offset the lack of hands-on oversight of the process.


 
 
  I worked for Tiderace
  Posted by: no_kayak on Oct-02-12 3:02 PM (EST)
The reason I know what I do is because I worked for Tiderace when the decision to move was made and was party to all the gory details.

The move to Thailand was motivated entirely by quality and at the expense of terms and pricing that the dealer network could easily stomach.

It would have been far easier from a short-term business perspective to continue allowing Charger Composites to do a mediocre job building Tiderace boats, but mediocre isn't what the company was or is about.

We took a hard decision to move at a time when it would cost us a year's business development, because there was a need to move away from Charger and at the same time, the facility that offered us the best quality we had ever seen was Cobra in Thailand. This is Cobra who work to International ISO Standards and work with brands such as Ferrari and Audi.

Frankly, to talk about them as if they are some environment-killing bucket shop is ignorant behaviour.

We went from a European factory where product was at time less than 50% firsts, to one in Thailand where the rate is more than 90%. That is not a price issue, that's a quality one.

Trust me when I say, our payment and delivery terms were the toughest in the marketplace and the reason Tiderace survives is because the first consideration is the quality of the product, sadly at the expense of commercial advantage.
 
 
  not picking a fight
  Posted by: radiomix on Oct-02-12 3:11 PM (EST)
Just interested. Is there a reason tiderace doesn't build their own boats in a local shop.

Ryan L.
 
 
  cobra composites
  Posted by: kwikle on Oct-02-12 3:51 PM (EST)
builds these kayaks to a higher level of specification than what a local fabrication shop could do at this point. Cobra is simply a better end product option for Tiderace.

http://www.cobrainter.com/kayak-xidc83853.html

 
 
  A response from Tiderace
  Posted by: aledw on Nov-15-12 7:57 PM (EST)
There are many interesting questions raised here, so I'll attempt to answer a few.
(By the way, best I introduce myself: I'm Aled Williams, I design the Tiderace boats and oversee production, I live in North Wales, UK)

Over the last 25 years, I've designed boats for other manufacturers, was once a partner in setting up our own factory, and recently was a partner in setting up Tiderace. The reason Tiderace does not operate its own factory production is simply down to economics and time. The capital investment in establishing a large factory from scratch is considerable, much deeper than my pockets or the value of my house/savings. I've tried starting small - it takes years to work from profits to build to a production size/scale which actually makes money - I never achieved this. I tried it, and ran out of time - it wasn't sustainable. A new factory would need to be large enough to produce at a level which gave sufficient world wide market volume production and sales penetration to make the company viable. And as I said, that comes at a high price. The alternative is to seek a 3rd party manufacturer, which is the model Tiderace has followed. Cobra is our fourth manufacturer (after a world wide search), 3 other companies ultimately failed to deliver. High quality and volume production are hard to find in a 3rd party manufacturer, Cobra have provided both. 60% (ish) of the worlds total output of surfboards, windsurf boards, SUPs and kiteboards comes out of this factory - this level of success speaks for itself. They also build yachts and sailing dingies and in the automotive section manufacture composite parts for Audi, BMW, Ferrari and Lamborghini. This is no eastern sweat shop! It's probably one of the most high-tech volume composites manufacturers in the world. Their factory arrangement gives us a dedicated production team, a separate QA team and all the logistics support we need. To be honest, its a fun place to be. We get exactly what we ask for, on time, to quality, in volume - having this level of manufacturing support allows Tiderace to grow quickly and efficiently as a company. But better than that, I get to have boats built exactly to my specification, with no restrictions on quality and range of materials, manufacturing processes and graphic technologies - I end up with exactly the boat I envisaged, exactly what I want to paddle.

Cobra is owned and run a Thai family and managed by a very cosmopolitan management staff. But, the real reason why we enjoy working with this factory is about trust, commitment, reciprocating values and a partnership which is committed to honest collaboration and success. I sympathise and understand the conservative approach to buying locally made products, supporting local economies etc. I started out building all my own boats, even sold a few, and employed a hand-full of my neighbours for a while. The demand for the products grew and we grew the company in the way we could. The business now supports us, our manufacturer, and a world wide network of dealers who sell our products.

That's a little bit of our story, now I'm off paddling... Feel free to ask further questions.
 
 
  Aled, thanks for that info.
  Posted by: Yanoer on Nov-16-12 6:52 PM (EST)
Sounds like a smart arrangement.

I hope to see one of the Cobra made boats in person, some day.
 
 
  Finally a reasonable response!
  Posted by: nebeginner on Nov-17-12 8:52 AM (EST)
-- Last Updated: Nov-17-12 8:53 AM EST --

What has irked me about Tiderace and this issue is the pompous and disingenuous claims that have been repeatedly made by some of your associates on these boards. You would be well served to give serious consideration to their judgement and temperament, and how that reflects on your company image.

I believe it is always best focus the message on the merits of ones own product rather than make the discussion about disparaging the competition.

Imagine if BMW announced that it is restructuring, and has decided to outsource all manufacturing to a 3rd party in Korea, claiming that this decision has nothing to do with profitability, and is all about quality.

Then they go on to say that it is no longer possible for anyone to build a car to their quality standards anywhere in Europe, Japan, or North America. When asked the obvious question "what about Mercedes and Audi?", the new BMW boasts that their new 3rd party manufactured cars will be superior to anything Mercedes or Audi ... or any other luxury car brand ... can ever build ... because only their new partner posses the unique skill and technology to make this so.

No one would buy that line, and BMW would be ridiculed.

But suppose instead they said something like this: based on excessive regulations, taxes, and union demands, we are faced with a decision to either compromise on quality in order to continue manufacturing in Europe and North America, or outsource to a country that has more favorable costs. After extensive searching, we have found a manufacturer in Korea that can produce a product that is at least equal to the high quality product our customers know and expect from BMW. That's a heck of a quality statement in itself. In fact, the improved cost structure will allow BMW to improve materials and features. Then they shift the discussion to how this will allow BWM to focus in design and innovations.

See?

Valley, P&H, and a few others are the Mercedes and Audis of Sea Kayaks. Putting Tiderace in that league is enough said on quality: "Cobra can manufacturer our designs to our high standards for quality, and deliver a boat that is as solid and well made as the very best boats on the market today, bar none."

The rest of the discussion is about YOUR boats.





 
 
  Yes, this is very evident ...
  Posted by: nebeginner on Oct-06-12 11:16 AM (EST)
That you "... worked for Tiderace ...".

"The move to Thailand was motivated entirely by quality..."

Well, there's always a first time.

"... Charger Composites to do a mediocre job building Tiderace boats..."

Why is that, do you think?

"This is Cobra who work to International ISO Standards ...".

Good things, yes ... but also voluntary, self-reported, and non enforceable. Cobra may very well adhere to all ISO standards. But there's more to it than that, and it is not unheard of for large well respected companies to outsource to 3rd parties and take at face value their claims of adherence to all kinds of standards and regulations ... and at the same time not look too closely or peel back the covers so they can have a clear conscience. Now, before you blow a gasket, I'm not saying Tiderace did that, or Cobra is anything less than it seems. Just making an observation.

Did Tiderace send their own people ... relocate their QC senior person or two, with their families, to Thailand? Set up an office inside Cobra's facility, to oversea and inspect?

"Frankly, to talk about them as if they are some environment-killing bucket shop is ignorant behaviour."

By definition, the only ignorance I can see here is coming from you ... jumping to conclusions and making assumptions.

But I understand I think where that comes from: it's a defensive response that must now be second nature to you and perhaps others at Tiderace when anyone asks a simple questions about where your boats are made, or why. My sense is somewhere deep down you may not be proud of the decision, or the place.

Since you brought it up, Thailand is in many areas physically a paradise ... but unfortunately most of the people native to that country are not in a position to enjoy that aspect. A simple search on drugs, corruption, human rights issues, etc, reveals many stories like this:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/09/28/us-thailand-corruption-idUSTRE68R0RZ20100928

Now, sit down ... don't smash your computer ... take a deep breath. I'm sure Cobra is a model manufacturer over there.

All I'm saying is this is a very low cost market to produce anything, and the reason is at the expense of actual enforcement of regulations and standards in the EU, USA, etc, that drive up costs to make many products. Those added expenses have nothing to do with quality, except that it may force manufacturers that hang around to source cheaper costing materials.

I have never seen a Tiderace boat, so I can't speak to quality. But are you seriously saying it is a better made boat that my Valley? Or any other well crafted high quality out there? Please ...

At best Tiderace is as good as, which says a lot, because these boats are as good as it gets.

Personally, I would (and have) gladly pay more for a quality product made locally, or in a country I feel better about when it comes to having factories where workers are treated humanely, have benefits, some protection from abuse, etc.

Now there you go ... sit back down ... you're not going to live long if can't keep your blood pressure down. Again, I'm not saying Cobra is anything less than a model factory that could operate the exact same way it does in Thailand as it would have to in England or the US.

I am merely pointing out that you seem rather defensive about where Tiderace makes their boats, and seem to feel some need to justify this with superiority claims regarding the quality against all other boats, and perhaps spin a fairytale story of a poor beleaguered company that, try as it might, just can't find anyone that do justice to manufacturing their design ... until the heavens part and a great shaft of golden light beams down on Cobra ... altruistically motivated purely by QC and not profits ...

 
 
  Dang...
  Posted by: NewbTastic on Oct-09-12 8:45 AM (EST)
...pretty much lighting his hair on fire. =0

PNet is a ROUGH place.

 
 
  erm...
  Posted by: no_kayak on Oct-09-12 2:00 PM (EST)
Throughout the setup phase Tiderace's MD Dave Felton and/or Designer Aled Williams personally inspected every single boat before it left the factory.

And yes, Tiderace boats are built to a higher specification than Valley, PandH or SKUK and so on. That reflects in the price point and the number of boats sold, but it's a conscious decision. As a manufacturer, we also had a retail operation that sold boats by Valley and PandH, so we had plenty of exposure to their product.

As for being defensive, I have no need to be defensive at all. I (and many dealers/customers of Tiderace's) know full well the quality that is produced and the move to Thailand was a huge leap in quality but not necessarily one that improved costs.

If people want to remain ignorant or make accusations that are unfounded, that is up to them.
 
 
  KoolAid and sneakers
  Posted by: suiram on Oct-02-12 4:22 PM (EST)
You should really stop and smell the roses
Here is a commentary on your paradise - http://business.time.com/2012/10/01/dispelling-the-myth-of-chinese-efficiency
 
 
  cobra composites is in thailand
  Posted by: kwikle on Oct-02-12 4:52 PM (EST)
just fyi marius :)
 
 
  oh no!
  Posted by: suiram on Oct-02-12 5:01 PM (EST)
How could I make such a mistake ;)

Bottom line - even though high quality of composite layups can be achieved both in Europe and US the labor costs would price them out of the market not ready to pay premium.
 
 
  on the plus side...
  Posted by: NewbTastic on Oct-03-12 5:09 AM (EST)
...you only missed by a few hundred miles. =)


 
 
  totally different worlds
  Posted by: tsunamichuck1 on Oct-03-12 6:06 AM (EST)
Thailand is beautiful, Bangkok is quite enjoyable. China is proof that humans have no right to inhabit this planet
 
 
  No one gets rich making kayaks
  Posted by: Celia on Nov-16-12 9:11 AM (EST)
We have 10 boats (long boats and WW) in the basement and under the porch as well as a canoe. The brands include Valley, Necky, NDK, Pyrahnna, P&H, Dagger, Bell, Wavesport and I am not counting my first Current Designs kayak that I sold. We have experienced the new and used pricing levels of all of these brands, obviously. It is likely that the CEO at the conglomorate level, say Johnson Outdoors, is making a damn good salary and may even have some fat bonuses. But no one who is directly living on making and selling kayaks is going to be the featured client on the next installment of Million Dollar Decorator.

Tiderace is putting out some interesting boats, especially that 15 footer. I gradually went to using my 15'8" Vela as primary on big water because it is spritely and just less fuss. The combination of speed and other handling characteristics in that boat has been darned near impossible to replicate so far, despite the fact that it is a pretty old design now. Perhaps the Pace will do that.

I appreciate hearing news like this. As to things like profit margin, if someone suspects that to be a problem they can always just not buy the company's product and look elsewhere.
 
 
  Profits are a good thing ...
  Posted by: nebeginner on Nov-17-12 9:54 AM (EST)
In business there are decisions made that are based on profits, and decisions based on doing the right thing.

In my 30 years in the business world, I can say that more profitable companies can make more decisions based on doing the right thing, while unprofitable companies have to make most if not all decisions solely based on financials.

My point is that Tiderace made a profit based decision to outsource, which may have offered, and probably did, other benefits. There's nothing wrong with that.

But some people want to pretend that profit was not the driver, and that IMHO is disingenuous.

So is getting defensive when asked where the product is made. If someone is proud of their product, why treat where it is made like a dirty little secret?

And then there are these outrageous superior quality claims. I'm sure they want to make a quality product, and chose a manufacturer accordingly.

You have some great boats, and far more experience than I do on these things ... maybe I'm wrong, but my POV is that, baring occasional defects or problems that can pop up, there are a more than a few companies out there making top quality boats. I can't imagine a discussion about which boat better built, my Valley vs. a few others in your stable, as being much more than largely subjective and splitting of hairs.

As I see it, Tiderace should strive to be considered in the same class, from a build quality perspective, by the general paddling public as Valley, as P&H, etc.

With the exception of the most recent post today by their owner, these guys have been spinning a bit of a yarn. I hope this signals a change.
 
 
  more from Tiderace...
  Posted by: aledw on Nov-17-12 3:01 PM (EST)
@nebeginner
I read your message with a certain horror.
As a company we donít involve ourselves with direct communication through country specific news groups and bulletin boards such as this one (until now!). Sales, marketing and communication are handled by dealers/distributors in respective countries, and we try to keep them informed about our products as best we can. It's a cause for concern when the perception of our company values intentionally or unintentionally deviate from what we stand for and what we try to achieve. We also realise, sometimes with regret, that curbing the enthusiasm of passionate individuals is beyond our control, especially in public forums. It's our policy never to directly compare our products with those from another manufacturer. Our products are aimed at discerning paddlers who can evaluate the merits, advantages/disadvantages, shortcomings of our products for themselves. We rely a lot on the integrity of our dealers to uphold this quality of service and to guide a potential customer to purchasing the best product for them - whether it be a Tiderace product or not. Beyond what is available on our website and in dealer workbooks, we will happily supply anyone who requests further specific information about the design and construction of our kayaks. We openly reveal what our boats are made of, down to individual layers within our laminates, resin types and quality, reinforcing materials - also design features such as stability, resistance and load carrying values (we can quote this for specific paddler weight/boat weight/cargo weight combinations). We could (possibly) bore you for hours on our design philosophy and our interpretation of how kayaks should perform and handle - we paddle our boats avidly and we believe in what we create.

So I urge you to disregard any offensive, defamatory or derogatory assertions supposedly said on our behalf as these are unlikely to reflect the true values of what we stand for. If specific answers are not forthcoming by our official partners, please get in touch with us direct.

Aled Williams
 
 
  Alrighty, then...
  Posted by: NewbTastic on Sep-29-12 8:10 AM (EST)
-- Last Updated: Oct-03-12 12:28 AM EST --

...ppl do not care too much about Tiderace's boats. Noted. ;]

But they do care about arguing about globalization? Hmm. =\

 
 
  i think
  Posted by: radiomix on Sep-29-12 3:49 PM (EST)
I saw these on the facebook. They look cool. Which is half the battle.

Ryan L.
 
 
  Paydirt!
  Posted by: NewbTastic on Sep-30-12 9:45 AM (EST)
-- Last Updated: Oct-02-12 4:04 AM EST --

The 2013 Tiderace Dealer's Workbook:

http://welhonpesa.suomalainenverkkokauppa.fi/data/doc/ti/tideraceworkbook2013_kz6pyq4zhx.pdf


The new models (more specifically) are:

Pace Evoke- The Pace 18 in 15'9" form, and with a 4-hatch layout instead of the 18's 3 hatches.

Pace 17 Tour- Basically a 17', 4-hatch version of the Pace 18.

(both of the shorter Paces have slightly wider beams and more rocker than the 18... so perhaps a bit more all-around/'sea-kayak-y' than the 18, though still with the long-waterline design)

Xtra 'LV' - A smaller version of the Xtra playboat... but it now becomes the regular Xtra (no LV in the name, even though that's what it is). The current Xtra is retained, but is re-named the 'Xtra HV'. Yeah, that's not confusing at all.

Vortex - As mentioned previously, a rotomold version of the Xtra.


The only disappointment is that TR's uber-awesome 'graphics' paint-job remains available only on the Xtra and Xtreme... would be great to see it on offered on all their boats. IMO, it's the best-looking paint-job offered on any kayak anywhere.

That quibble aside, seems like TR is fleshing out their lineup quite nicely.


 
 
  New Tiderace kayaks
  Posted by: kwikle on Oct-02-12 10:59 AM (EST)
Personally really excited for the new Xtra (LV for lack of a better term at this point).

I don't have dealer pricing from NYK yet, which when it comes will answer the question.

Though it must be said the price of composite kayaks has gone up over the last few years.

Avg price in 2001 when I got into a composite boat was around $2900. The average price for a new composite kayak now is around $3500. Plastic boats in 2001 from P&H/Valley were around $1200, and are now around $1800-$1900.

Tiderace is not a discount kayak manufacturer, and nor is it the most expensive kayak out there, but they have tended to make some awesome hulls out of top flight materials.

If you are looking for a demo in the Midwest drop me a line.

Best Keith
 
 
  Does Tiderace make a rockered day
  Posted by: rpg51 on Oct-03-12 5:36 AM (EST)
boat that would fit big folks - "big" meaning 5'11" 250 Lbs.?
 
 
  probably the best bet...
  Posted by: NewbTastic on Oct-03-12 7:57 AM (EST)
...for you among TR "play n' day" boats is going to be the Xcite.
KayakAcademy says it best fits ppl up to about 6'3" and 240 lbs.

The Xtra and Xtreme seem meant for paddlers a bit smaller/lighter than that.

The Xplore-X and Xcape-X are for REALLY big paddlers, but are also lower-rocker touring/expedition boats, i.e. not what you said you wanted.

I'm sure some others will chime in here.
 
 
  Now I am confused
  Posted by: Celia on Oct-03-12 10:15 AM (EST)
I was OK until I actually read the whole thread, then got confounded. I just checked out the kilograms/pounds cited for the Xtra as in smaller one on Tiderace's site, and got a minimum weight of 155 pounds up to more. So this is an average (before the obesity epidemic) paddler weight boat, not a 5'3" not-heavy woman.

So I see a bunch of new boats, but unless I am missing something the Tiderace lineup has not added any new hulls rated for the 115 to 135 pound paddler range, where many women fit. (I'll take a leap and assume that cockpit fit and deck height will tend to follow the volume, didn't look for those specs.)

Or am I missing a boat in there? I could be...
 
 
  xplore_S, xcite_S
  Posted by: kwikle on Oct-03-12 11:12 AM (EST)
both awesome boats for small people

xtra (in new LV) is still going to be bigger in that it needs the xtra volume for surfing. surfing requires volume to float the kayak and start it planing and carving. I would give them a try.
 
 
  Granted the Xtra is closer
  Posted by: Celia on Oct-03-12 11:37 AM (EST)
At least a lot closer than the regular Xplore or Xcite, which I am aware of. But I thought it interesting that this smaller end of the paddler population isn't covered well, yet anyway, in the new series. That may mean that another boat will join the new lineup (or that Tiderace doesn't see a market there).
 
 
  the point
  Posted by: suiram on Oct-03-12 12:00 PM (EST)
that Keith is making - a boat intended for surfing must have a certain hull profile for more efficient planing out
That said - I am really happy to see that "LV" in the lineup - I am just a little under the design weight ;)
 
 
  I get that part
  Posted by: Celia on Oct-03-12 12:43 PM (EST)
-- Last Updated: Oct-03-12 12:51 PM EST --

I understand that a surfing hull can use a little buoyancy than for other purposes. If that wasn't the case I'd have been hard pressed to manage a clearly over volume boat for me like the Explorer, LV cockpit or not, in surf.

I was wondering what I asked, if there was a boat one size down in the new lineup, since that is something that we are seeing from some other manufacturers. It would be cool if Tiderace were thinking of going in that direction, given the quality of their build and my already-existing affinity for the design ethic of Aled Williams.

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

 
 
  not Xtra
  Posted by: suiram on Oct-03-12 1:03 PM (EST)
But, TR seems to have a good handle on the market, I wouldn't put my money against it, since, as Keith said, -S are there.
Frankly, I am a little chafed how boat manufacturers do not advertise their upcoming models.
 
 
  small person's play boat
  Posted by: nickjc on Oct-03-12 2:03 PM (EST)
Sterling's new boat the Progression is built as a Reflection for smaller people. Still in prototype I believe, but it looks promising from the videos Reg Lake posted. I've owned a Reflection for 6 months now and it's a great play boat.
The green boat in the vid is the progression. The location is Skook of course.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-UgnmXODNMA&feature=g-user-u
 
 
  Marius
  Posted by: kwikle on Oct-03-12 3:43 PM (EST)
Drink beer
Eat chips, and I'll get you an xtra
 
 
  funny
  Posted by: suiram on Oct-04-12 9:58 AM (EST)
I'll just put that SS thermos and a bag of biscuits in my kit and be good to go ;)
Let me know when you or Ryan get some for demoing.
 
 
  not to mention Xcape-S
  Posted by: NewbTastic on Oct-03-12 1:57 PM (EST)
Kayak Academy has that one as being best for paddlers 5'1" to 5'7", and 110 to 165 lbs.

Their numbers for the Xcite-S are very similar to that, but according to them the Xplore-S runs a bit bigger, allegedly best for ppl 5'4" to 5'10" and 130 to 170 lbs.

They don't have numbers for the new 'Xtra LV' (which will just be the new 'Xtra'), but considering that the 'Xtra HV' (what used to be called the 'Xtra') is allegedly good for ppl as small as 5'4" and 140 lbs (again, KA's numbers), it's hard to imagine that the new 'LV' wouldn't be good fit for the fairly petite paddler.

 
 
  Current Xtra
  Posted by: Celia on Oct-03-12 5:54 PM (EST)
-- Last Updated: Oct-03-12 10:40 PM EST --

Just looked - 13.5 inch depth in the current one is the kind of depth that works for me but.... not a fit that I would pay a new fiberglass boat for at this point in my life KA's opinion aside.

Now if an LV version of that boat is coming, yes it would likely fit into my size. Did I see that in the announcements above or is it wishful thinking? I am quite losing track.

The Xcape is a good shot at more of a tracker - a boat worth looking at but a very different purpose than the Xtra.

 
 
  Two new Xtras
  Posted by: NewbTastic on Oct-03-12 7:08 PM (EST)
-- Last Updated: Oct-03-12 7:13 PM EST --

Hey Celia,

Yes, a new 'Xtra LV' is coming, but they're just going to call it the Xtra, and the current Xtra becomes the 'Xtra HV'. It's a little bit odd and confusing, but I guess TR figured it was more 'accurate' to do it that way.

The 'new Xtra' (i.e. 'LV but we're not calling it that') has a deck height of 12". The 'old Xtra' (now called HV) has a deck height of 12.8", not the 13.5" you stated (though I think they did reduce it by 0.4" from 2012).

The other new Xtra is the rotomold one, the Vortex. Like the 'LV' it as a 12" deck height. Looking at total volume and cockpit volume, it seems very much like a plastic version of the 'LV' rather than the HV.

 
 
  Got that by converting web site cm
  Posted by: Celia on Oct-03-12 8:00 PM (EST)
Unless I copied the cm over wrong. But it wouldn't be the first time a kayak manufacturer had less than easy to sort out info, or out of date, on a web site.
 
 
  no doubt
  Posted by: NewbTastic on Oct-05-12 10:03 AM (EST)
Yeah, absolutely. I don't know what it is about kayaking manufacturers, but many of them seem somewhat 'website-challenged.'

 
 
  Xtra Depth
  Posted by: old_user on Oct-06-12 9:45 PM (EST)
On the Tiderace website in the Kayak Models part of the website it says the depth is 33.5 cm. On their homepage with the link to the new models that show both Xtra's the HV is stated at 32.5. All volumes remain the same so their appears to be an error somewhere obviously. As another reference point the Kayak Academy website shows 13.2" which is in line with the original 33.5 cm on the Tiderace website.
 
 
  yup, my point exactly
  Posted by: NewbTastic on Oct-06-12 10:19 PM (EST)
 
 
  the Nuremberg defense
  Posted by: slushpaddler on Nov-16-12 10:44 AM (EST)
No truth to the rumor that Valley attended without the Pintail or Aquanaut in stock. Or to the Valley rep's response that "Ve vere only following ze orders".
 
 
  In case it got lost ...
  Posted by: Kocho on Nov-16-12 5:38 PM (EST)
The response from AW: http://www.paddling.net/message/showThread.html?fid=advice&tid=1561083#1578380 (copy the full URL, including the #1578380 part)
 

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