Canoe - Solo deep water re-entry - Canoeing / Kayaking

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Canoe - Solo deep water re-entry
Posted by: alan_gage on Jul-18-12 9:47 AM (EST) Category: Canoeing Technique

Hot here so I figured last night would be a good time to take a canoe to the local pond and practice re-entries, which I always mean to do but never get around to.

It was a bit of any eye opener. I didn't have much problem getting myself back into an empty canoe, but getting it empty was the problem. Starting with a swamped boat the best I could do was get it about 1/2 empty, which wasn't near good enough.

I tried different ways but I didn't have enough buoyancy with my life jacket. I couldn't keep my head above water to lift the boat high enough.

If it's that hard in a warm pond with calm water I can't imagine the middle of a lake with wind, waves, cold water, and my dog swimming around as well. So I gotta figure it out. How about some tips?

Oh, the boat was an Osprey (15', 40 lbs) and I'm just over 6' and 170lbs.

Alan

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Table of Contents

Canoe - Solo deep water re-entry - alan_gage - Jul-18-12 9:47 AM
- So you got back into the Osprey? - clarion - Jul-18-12 10:06 AM
  - Tried half full - alan_gage - Jul-18-12 10:22 AM
    - That's where end bags help - clarion - Jul-18-12 10:29 AM
      - Yes but..... - alan_gage - Jul-18-12 10:39 AM
        
        Here's an idea if you're experimenting - clarion - Jul-18-12 11:16 AM
        
        Could work - alan_gage - Jul-18-12 12:00 PM
        
        float bag in one end only - nycmhandy - Jul-19-12 6:47 PM
- Safe assumption - pgeorg - Jul-18-12 11:57 AM
  - I'm wondering what kind of gear you had - FrankNC - Jul-18-12 12:13 PM
    - Had nothing - alan_gage - Jul-18-12 3:17 PM
- Solo Tripper Re-Entry - CEWilson - Jul-18-12 12:42 PM
  - Had nothing... - FrankNC - Jul-18-12 6:05 PM
  - paddle float - latremorej - Jul-23-12 9:25 AM
- Capistrano Flip - willi_h2o - Jul-18-12 7:48 PM
- all the above..... - bigspencer - Jul-18-12 9:03 PM
- dry bag ? - Mattt - Jul-19-12 9:03 AM
  - If possible - alan_gage - Jul-19-12 11:40 AM
    - In those cases ... - Westbrancher - Jul-20-12 6:24 AM
- Tried again - Better results - alan_gage - Jul-21-12 11:11 PM
  - nothing to add but "thanks" - puddlejockey - Jul-22-12 8:49 AM
- waterproof gear bags - peterj - Jul-22-12 11:23 PM
  - No no no no no - willi_h2o - Jul-22-12 11:46 PM
  - weight - alan_gage - Jul-23-12 10:27 AM
    - Stick with tru Canoe Float Bags - willi_h2o - Jul-23-12 12:44 PM
      - Float bags or dry bags... - steve_in_idaho - Jul-23-12 1:29 PM
        
        Is it? - alan_gage - Jul-23-12 9:54 PM
        
        Guess I wasn't clear... - steve_in_idaho - Jul-24-12 12:46 PM
- Third try - this time with the Magic - alan_gage - Jul-23-12 10:11 PM
- Water in a bag - willi_h2o - Jul-24-12 1:16 AM
- A couple of videos from the UK... - snowgoose.skipper - Jul-24-12 9:52 AM
- re-entry plan - arcadian - Jul-26-12 8:59 AM
  - misc - alan_gage - Jul-26-12 11:32 AM
    - Kits and self-rescue... - snowgoose.skipper - Jul-30-12 1:56 PM
      - Different conditions? - alan_gage - Jul-30-12 3:39 PM

Messages in this Topic

  So you got back into the Osprey?
  Posted by: clarion on Jul-18-12 10:06 AM (EST)

That's pretty impressive. Did you get back in with it half full of water? Or did you empty it first where you could touch?

  Tried half full
  Posted by: alan_gage on Jul-18-12 10:22 AM (EST)

I tried getting back in with it half full of water but then my weight made it ride even lower and the water would slosh forward or backwards, swamping the bow or stern and flooding it further. Only way I could successfully get in was to either jump out of the boat so it didn't swamp or empty it in shallow water and then swim out to deeper water for the reentry. Once it was empty it wasn't too tough getting in. Of course things would be different in the real world where the water would likely be rough and I probably wouldn't be barefoot wearing only swimming trunks and a life jacket.

I didn't have a bailer with me but I wonder how long it would take to empty out a half full canoe after I've flipped it upright?

Alan

  That's where end bags help
  Posted by: clarion on Jul-18-12 10:29 AM (EST)

If I was serious about re-entry in deep water. I'd have at least 48" end bags. That would cut down on the amount of water you'd have to bail. I used to do it in my Supernova which had 60" bags and it didn't take long to get the water out with a bailer.

  Yes but.....
  Posted by: alan_gage on Jul-18-12 10:39 AM (EST)

I'm never out without my dog and my biggest risk of a dangerous capsize would be when I'm on a trip with a boat full of gear. Locally it's just small lakes and rivers.

Maybe the only answer is to be more selective about open water crossings when I'm out on my own.

Alan

  Here's an idea if you're experimenting
  Posted by: clarion on Jul-18-12 11:16 AM (EST)

I wonder what would happen if you carried a spare PFD, a pretty large one. If you put on a second PFD over the first while in the water, I wonder if you'd be buoyant able to get all the water out. Then you'd take the second one off before trying to re-enter.

Sounds like the kind of thing I wouldn't mind experimenting with.

  Could work
  Posted by: alan_gage on Jul-18-12 12:00 PM (EST)

I was thinking more about the float bags too and I think just one bag in the stern might make a big difference. One of the problems I had trying to empty water was that if I picked up the bow the stern would sink deeper. So I'd have to keep the boat in the air but start sliding my way towards the stern to try and get it raised out of the water, I just couldn't do it. But if there was a bag in the stern it should keep the back end from sinking when I lift the bow. That just might be enough to empty almost all the water before flipping. Now if only I had a float bag I'd try it tonight....

Alan

  float bag in one end only
  Posted by: nycmhandy on Jul-19-12 6:47 PM (EST)

That makes the water-filled end really want to be the low end in the water, leaving the bagged end waving in the air. I haven't tried it in a canoe, which allows water to escape from the ends, but the problem can make a kayak unrescuable: you can't get the low end high enough to drain the water out through the cockpit. I'd be interested in hearing your experience.

Mark

  Safe assumption
  Posted by: pgeorg on Jul-18-12 11:57 AM (EST)

is that you will fail to get back in when you really need to. Therefore your thought about being very selective about open water crossings is the conservative approach to the issue. I do not expect to be able to self-rescue, into a solo canoe, in deep water and operate accordingly.

Peter

  I'm wondering what kind of gear you had
  Posted by: FrankNC on Jul-18-12 12:13 PM (EST)

You mentioned you had not bailer, so I'm guessing you had a standard electric pump and float bags? Even with the pump and flotation I usually want to bring a bailer if I'm more than a five minute swim from shallow water.

  Had nothing
  Posted by: alan_gage on Jul-18-12 3:17 PM (EST)

I assume this question is posted to me. I didn't have anything along when I was practicing my re-entry. No pump, bailer, or even a sponge. To be honest I never take them with me when I'm canoeing. I'm usually on our local river, which is at most a class .5 and about 100-150 feet wide, or I'm on one of our local lakes where you can stand up almost anywhere, but you might sink up to your knees in mud. Or if I hit one of the larger lakes nearby there's plenty of other boats around to lend a hand, though I've never needed it.

I do bring one along when I'm taking longer trips or travel to rivers where I might actually encounter some rapids though.

Alan

  Solo Tripper Re-Entry
  Posted by: CEWilson on Jul-18-12 12:42 PM (EST)

It's tough. The Capistrano Flip is pretty questionable with that heavy a boat, and if it works the hull may take flight on the wind anyway.

Probably better to push the stern down and away, draining ~ 2/3 of the water in that manner. Benefits include keeping the rails lower for a mantle-shelf reentry across a bow quarter. This requires enough shoulder strength to load the far rail with the equivalent of one's torso weight to keep the rails ~ flat. [Can you do 50 pushups?] We always entry face first from the bow so we end up with our feet pointed forward, then roll upright in the bot and start bailing.

Another option is to use a paddlefloat and loop a longish rescue strap from the paddle shaft under the boat, back across the rails and down into the water on the paddlefloat side, ~ a 180 in long sling. Then the swimmer just steps up into the boat, sits low and starts bailing.

Alan is Soooo right to be working on this before the skills are needed in extremus.

  Had nothing...
  Posted by: FrankNC on Jul-18-12 6:05 PM (EST)

Looks like most of the places you go, You would not need anything but to drag to shore and dump out the water. In deeper wider lakes and rivers I really like tied in flotation and a bailer.

  paddle float
  Posted by: latremorej on Jul-23-12 9:25 AM (EST)

+1... I use the paddle float and step strap method. Works equally well in a canoe as a kayak. Paddle float also worked great to get my dog back into the boat when he got carried away and chased a green spinner bait (tennis ball color) into the lake.

I usually rock the swamped boat port to stern quickly until about 70% of the water is out. This method works for me, may not for others. You do get a face full of water doing it though.

  Capistrano Flip
  Posted by: willi_h2o on Jul-18-12 7:48 PM (EST)

-- Last Updated: Jul-18-12 7:53 PM EST --

Age old technique
http://www.canoekayak.com/canoe/capistranoflipcanoe/

http://shiawassee-river.blogspot.com/2007/08/capistrano-flip-canoe-self-rescue.html

Probably a bit tougher solo, I'll admit.
Large canoe specific float bags are the ticket.

  all the above.....
  Posted by: bigspencer on Jul-18-12 9:03 PM (EST)

-- Last Updated: Jul-18-12 9:16 PM EST --

Solo...big bags...hands-down favorite items. The written maneuver looks sound...as is all the previous stuff. Capistrano with tandem or bigger boat. Definitely one at a time, till really dry, with tandem paddler. With lighter boat I've had good luck with a big bag(or combined with a cut-free rear bag) hopping on the end to plunge the very end using the bag(s) as your fulcrum. A little tool...I'll tie two thick lengths of rope onto a near midships thwart so I can grab it while sitting on an end, I'll get them together so I can grab them both...then lean back to give it an inverted Titanic aspect and let go of one rope(where I'm falling off into)& pull to spin... One way that's worked when needed.
$.01

  dry bag ?
  Posted by: Mattt on Jul-19-12 9:03 AM (EST)

if you had any gear with you in a dry bag, you could try straddling/sitting on the bag as you try to flip the canoe - might give you enough extra bouyancy to do it

I'm of the opinion that mostly it is better to just swim your boat to shore - likely that is going to be quicker than trying to deal with a boat load of gear, emptying the boat, getting in, recovering your gear, and then paddling to shore anyway.

  If possible
  Posted by: alan_gage on Jul-19-12 11:40 AM (EST)

I agree that in most cases swimming to shore would probably be a quicker and easier option. But there are some cases were it simply isn't possible, either because hypothermia would set in before you made it to shore or wind/waves are preventing you from swimming that direction. A boat full of water is heavy and doesn't swim easily.

Alan

  In those cases ...
  Posted by: Westbrancher on Jul-20-12 6:24 AM (EST)

... I try to have end bags in my canoe, as someone else suggested. In most cases I don't bother, but I take the trouble of installing them for big, wide open water. Even with a full load of gear, a properly loaded canoe will have its bow and stern areas open. (Loading gear in these areas adversely affects the canoe's ability to pivot, as Cliff Jacobson and others have pointed out).

I conducted an experiment like yours after my son was born. I wanted to know that I could right a swamped boat in any circumstances, just in case. My tandem boat is a big and somewhat beastly 17.5 Bell Alaskan. Righting this boat after a capsize in deep water is pretty well impossible. With float bags properly installed, it's no problem at all.

It's really a very simple situation, but one that requires a little time, money, and energy to put in place. Likely your canoe will require p-rings or similar hardware along the gunwales and lash tabs on the floor in order to "cage" the bags with parachute cord. It took me a couple afternoons to get all of this in place.

  Tried again - Better results
  Posted by: alan_gage on Jul-21-12 11:11 PM (EST)

Took the Osprey out for another try this evening with much better results. I don't have any float bags but I did manage to find my paddle float, which fit really nicely between the rear carry thwart and rear deck of the canoe. Just slip the paddle float between them, with about 3/4 of it above the gunwales, and fill it full of air. It was held in place very well this way.

Now with a capsized canoe the back end floated high and dry and didn't sink when I'd pick up the bow. I still wasn't able to lift and flip the canoe high enough from the bow but I found a position that worked quite well.

I'd actually get under the capsized boat (plenty of air space to breath) facing the stern with my back against the thwart ahead of the seat, so I'm about 1/4 of the way back from the bow. Grab a gunwale in each hand, lift the right side higher than the left (feels stronger for me) to break the seal and start draining some water and then give a mighty kick and shove to flip it over.

It sounds a little simpler than it actually was. I still wasn't able to do this and keep my head above water so I actually let it push me under. After breaking the seal and getting the right side raised up a little I'd just go underwater and raise it as high as I could before kicking and flipping. Doing it this way I was consistently able to empty all but 3-5 gallons of water. With that amount of water re-entering was no problem.

Also be sure to keep a hand on the gunwale when flipping it. The first time I didn't do this and the boat ended up about 4' away from me and drifting. Any breeze and I never would have caught up to it.

After doing it a few times I timed myself. First time took 2min. 20 seconds to get back in the boat. I put the paddle float in wrong and it popped out after the second try so I had to reset it. On my second attempt everything went smooth and I was back in the boat in half the time (1 min. 10 sec).

So I guess at this point I feel pretty confident that if I capsize in warm water, on a warm day, with no wind blowing, no gear in the boat, and no dog I'd have no problem reentering my canoe. What a relief. :)

I'll be curious to see if an affixed stern bag works better or worse. Having the paddle float attached this way, with over a foot of it sticking up over the stern, really keeps the stern floating high and seems to help keep the water out during the flip.

I also wonder how much difference built in bow/stern flotation would make. I haven't built any for my Osprey yet. I'll have to take my Magic out next time and see how it does. It's 6lbs lighter and has end tanks. It's also tippier so climbing back in might be more difficult.

Alan

  nothing to add but "thanks"
  Posted by: puddlejockey on Jul-22-12 8:49 AM (EST)

to all of you who are contributing to the board. It really does help those "lurkers" like us to start thinking about ( and practicing) some new skills.

I took my Penobscot out when I first started paddling my own boat about 4 years ago, with a friend that was teaching me the ropes. Learning that rolling the boat wasn't a tragedy...and reentry techniques..were two of the first things that we covered. To be honest, solo reentry was something that I really struggled with, and never really got the hang of in deeper water.
Since i wear an insulin pump (theoretically waterproof), reentry without "belly flopping" over the side, and potentially tearing out my infusion sight- is an extra challenge. You guys have given me some thoughts on work arounds for that. :)

( To save the replies; no, I don't plan on going swimming while wearing my pump; but that's sort of the definition of a problem: things that happen when you haven't scheduled them... )

  waterproof gear bags
  Posted by: peterj on Jul-22-12 11:23 PM (EST)

A 3 cu ft gear bag with 50 # of stuff in it still offers over 100# of bouyancy. IF they are secured like air bags they will yield much of the same benefit.

  No no no no no
  Posted by: willi_h2o on Jul-22-12 11:46 PM (EST)

-- Last Updated: Jul-22-12 11:48 PM EST --

Dry bags are never to be submerged, under water !
A roll top bag offers some protection, but not complete.
They are not 100% waterproof, merely water resistant.

Use gear for its intended design - don't make up stuff.

***__Extremely Typical Disclaimer___***
http://www.seattlesportsco.com/Content%20Instructions/Dry%20Bag%20instructions.pdf

I'm NOT betting my life in open water on a dry bag

  weight
  Posted by: alan_gage on Jul-23-12 10:27 AM (EST)

I thought of that too but worry that a 50 pound gear bag, that's now taken on some water, would make it impossible to raise the canoe high enough to flip it over while emptying the water. And the bag itself wouldn't be able to displace enough water on its own to just roll the boat over and expect it to be nearly empty. Although I haven't actually tried it either way it seems the best bet, at least for a solo boater, would be to let the gear bag float out of the canoe and retrieve it after re-entering.

Alan

  Stick with tru Canoe Float Bags
  Posted by: willi_h2o on Jul-23-12 12:44 PM (EST)

-- Last Updated: Jul-23-12 1:03 PM EST --

NRS makes items specific to canoe flotation
http://www.nrsweb.com/shop/product_list.asp?deptid=1215

Of course they have to "locked in" via webbing,
tethering, or something, to be useful and not float away

Some people go solid foam
http://www.aiguillealpine.co.uk/cgi-bin/trolleyed_public.cgi?action=showprod_E0329

  Float bags or dry bags...
  Posted by: steve_in_idaho on Jul-23-12 1:29 PM (EST)

Kind of a silly argument. Can't think of any reason why one would want to use dry bags *instead* of float bags for flotation. But if you are carrying gear, having it in secured dry bags is better than having it take up the same space without the bag(s).

Use float bags for flotation. But gear secured in dry bags in the remaining space is better than just empty space (after the gear dumps out). The idea is to have as much space as possible filled with something lighter than water that is attached to the boat. That being the case, swamping is much less of an issue.

  Is it?
  Posted by: alan_gage on Jul-23-12 9:54 PM (EST)

"But gear secured in dry bags in the remaining space is better than just empty space (after the gear dumps out). The idea is to have as much space as possible filled with something lighter than water that is attached to the boat. That being the case, swamping is much less of an issue."

After playing around with reentries a few times I wonder if that's actually the case. I realize that an empty canoe holds a lot of water, but it also releases that water easily when you turn it upside down. With a lightweight boat I can get dump most of the water with no flotation. With just a little flotation in the rear I can flip it over and have it pretty much empty. No way could I do that with gear strapped in the boat, it would be too heavy to lift. And with the loads most people carry I don't think the gear would displace enough water.

But the more I think about it I suppose it depends on the situation. If all you want to do is swim the boat to shore in order to empty it out gear lashed in place would probably help rather than hinder. But if the goal is to empty the boat of water without reaching shore then I'd say an empty boat would be better.

Alan

  Guess I wasn't clear...
  Posted by: steve_in_idaho on Jul-24-12 12:46 PM (EST)

I know it won't hold if you habitually carry heavy gear - like dutch ovens and the like. But if the gear is in dry bags - which *will* float on flat water, if properly closed - the boat won't take on as much water as it would with that gear loose in the boat. Unless you take extraordinary measures against it, there will be air trapped in the dry bags. If the dry bags are secured in the boat, they will displace water. If with float bags and dry bags you still managed to swamp and/or turtle the canoe do the degree that you need to be able to lift the boat, you can still release the dry bags (they will float long enough if you did your part). But if all that water has been displaced except where you sit, how did you end up that bad off?

  Third try - this time with the Magic
  Posted by: alan_gage on Jul-23-12 10:11 PM (EST)

Took out the Bell Magic tonight for more practice. This boat weighs 34 pounds (my Osprey is 40) and has built in flotation tanks bow and stern.

With an empty boat I still wasn't able to consistently empty it of water. On my first try I emptied all but a few gallons and was very happy but I never got close to doing that good again.

Then I pulled out the paddle float and installed it between the rear carry thwart and the stern of the canoe. It was held in place very well by pressure once it was inflated. With this installed I was easily able to empty the boat of all but about 1 gallon or less of water every time, sometimes even without my head being forced underwater. It was much easier than the Osprey, the 6lbs lighter weight being the big difference I'm sure.

Reentering the Magic once it was emptied was really no harder than the Osprey. I only timed myself once and I was back in the boat in 1 minute even though I had a little difficulty fitting the paddle float.

I think these were pretty real to life situations as there was plenty of cursing as my elbow whacked the gunwale when capsizing and I gave myself a killer bruise on the back of my thigh from sliding it over the gunwale on reentry.

I even tried it with my dog. She was not impressed. Sadie likes being on the water, not in it. First I just jumped out without capsizing and reentered with her in the boat. No problem. Then I actually capsized it. After she managed to get out from under the upturned boat she made a mad dash towards shore. She was panicked and I didn't have the heart to try and stop her to complete the rescue. Thankfully she was still willing to get back into the canoe for a little paddle around the pond, although she seems a bit suspicious now.

Next practice session will come when we get some wind. I'm sure Sadie won't mind watching from shore.

Alan

  Water in a bag
  Posted by: willi_h2o on Jul-24-12 1:16 AM (EST)

-- Last Updated: Jul-24-12 1:18 AM EST --

Sure wouldn't want to flip a boat with big ol'
Duluth portage bags attached to it

http://youtu.be/7gvx2bWHJvo

http://duluthpack.com/monarchs-canoe-pack.html

  A couple of videos from the UK...
  Posted by: snowgoose.skipper on Jul-24-12 9:52 AM (EST)

-- Last Updated: Jul-24-12 9:53 AM EST --

Here's a short video that includes self rescue just lifting one end of a solo canoe:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?&v=39aM0tbG6VU

How you support the other end is open to many answers, but bear in mind that lashed-in kit can displace water just as effectively as airbags...

Here's another short video, this time showing a canoe just being rolled over and coming up without being completely swamped:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?&v=EoBIq9_syb0

The secret there is the location of the support: here it's in the section of the canoe that's going to get submerged, not in floatation-tanks / bags in the stems - as these lift out of the water as you roll the canoe!

  re-entry plan
  Posted by: arcadian on Jul-26-12 8:59 AM (EST)

I recently posted on this. I'm pretty comfortable getting back in a swamped boat after an across-the-bow recovery, but my big concern has always been getting back in when paddling alone. This summer I put one of my boats on Council Bluff, swamped it, and tried to get back in. The Argosy had enough floatation to keep the rails at the surface, but there was no way I could partially empty the boat and attempt re-entry. I ended up swimming my canoe to shore, about 50 yards in calm warm water.It was pretty exhausting. I did learn from this experiment, though. I decided my best bet was to rig my canoe for a paddle float/outrigger, and install large enough floatation bags to get the rail well out of the water. Since I'd most likely be paddling alone in my Bell Magic, I bought a couple standard bags from NRS, and ordered a paddle float. This has been an expensive and labor-intensive project; just figuring out the best lashing for the bags in an untralite 2-layer kevlar hull has been difficult. Now I have the bags installed and am waiting for the paddle float. Off to CB Lake this weekend to see if it all works. The test will be to swamp the boat, right it, attach the paddle float to the paddle and the paddle to the center thwart, roll over the side, and remove water with my bail bucket.

There is another side to this problem I didn't appreciate until t was almost too late: stuff essential for recovery (paddle float, bailer, etc) HAS to be securely anchored where it's available when needed; stuff that you bring along that will get in the way of recovery (dry bag, water containers, etc) should probably not be anchored unless by long tether. In my experience, my dry bag was anchored behind by seat and was forever in the way when I was trying to recover. The paddle, unless connected to a paddle leash, has to be clenched in a death grip from the moment of capsize. Losing it will definitely make a bad day worse.

  misc
  Posted by: alan_gage on Jul-26-12 11:32 AM (EST)

I think the best thing to do with a paddle would be to rig some clips to the rear thwart so that after a capsize it can be clipped in place inside the canoe. I found it a real hassle trying to right the boat and hang on to the paddle.

I'm a little leary of the idea of only emptying enough water to keep the gunwales above water and bailing after reentry. Assuming that a normal capsize situation would involve heavy waves, and knowing how tippy a boat becomes when full of water, it seems to me it would be very difficult to bail the water without even more washing in or, worse yet, re-capsizing.

Since you're getting a paddle float anyway and have a lightweight boat try the method of wedging the paddle float between the rear carry thwart and end cap then inflating it. This keeps the stern floating very high and should allow you to empty all but a couple gallons of the water easily.

I found reentry with the Magic pretty easy when the boat was empty, no need for a paddle/float/outrigger setup. While it works fine in flat water I believe many kayakers who have tried paddle float reentries on rough water have found it quite impractical. So it would probably be a good idea not to rely on it too heavily.

I'd be a little worried about tethering gear to the boat because of multiple lines to get hung up on while swimming and attempting reentry. I think my plan will be, if it ever comes to it, reentering the boat first and then picking up whatever gear is floating.

Let us know how practice goes.

Alan

  Kits and self-rescue...
  Posted by: snowgoose.skipper on Jul-30-12 1:56 PM (EST)

Frontier Bushcraft have published a beginner guide to lashing and leashing kit by British Canoeing guru Ray Goodwin.

http://frontierbushcraft.com/2012/06/23/how-to-stow-your-kit-for-a-canoe-expedition/

I'm 100% with his notion that "The combination of small airbags and lashed-down kit keeps the canoe afloat even when fully swamped": works fine for me.

  Different conditions?
  Posted by: alan_gage on Jul-30-12 3:39 PM (EST)

Do you look at the strategy of strapping in gear to displace water as more applicable to whitewater scenarios where you're likely to take on water without tipping as opposed to an actual capsize?

I can see where it would be beneficial in the case of water washing over the gunwales but it still seems detrimental to me in the case of a capsize, particularly solo, where you don't have anyone to help you empty the canoe, steady it while you get back in, and steady it while you bail out the water. Seems much safer to let the gear float away so you can empty the water from an empty boat and reenter it once it's dry.

Alan

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	So you got back into the Osprey? Posted by: clarion on Jul-18-12 10:06 AM (EST)
	That's pretty impressive. Did you get back in with it half full of water? Or did you empty it first where you could touch?

	Tried half full Posted by: alan_gage on Jul-18-12 10:22 AM (EST)
	I tried getting back in with it half full of water but then my weight made it ride even lower and the water would slosh forward or backwards, swamping the bow or stern and flooding it further. Only way I could successfully get in was to either jump out of the boat so it didn't swamp or empty it in shallow water and then swim out to deeper water for the reentry. Once it was empty it wasn't too tough getting in. Of course things would be different in the real world where the water would likely be rough and I probably wouldn't be barefoot wearing only swimming trunks and a life jacket. I didn't have a bailer with me but I wonder how long it would take to empty out a half full canoe after I've flipped it upright? Alan

	That's where end bags help Posted by: clarion on Jul-18-12 10:29 AM (EST)
	If I was serious about re-entry in deep water. I'd have at least 48" end bags. That would cut down on the amount of water you'd have to bail. I used to do it in my Supernova which had 60" bags and it didn't take long to get the water out with a bailer.

	Yes but..... Posted by: alan_gage on Jul-18-12 10:39 AM (EST)
	I'm never out without my dog and my biggest risk of a dangerous capsize would be when I'm on a trip with a boat full of gear. Locally it's just small lakes and rivers. Maybe the only answer is to be more selective about open water crossings when I'm out on my own. Alan

	Here's an idea if you're experimenting Posted by: clarion on Jul-18-12 11:16 AM (EST)
	I wonder what would happen if you carried a spare PFD, a pretty large one. If you put on a second PFD over the first while in the water, I wonder if you'd be buoyant able to get all the water out. Then you'd take the second one off before trying to re-enter. Sounds like the kind of thing I wouldn't mind experimenting with.

	Could work Posted by: alan_gage on Jul-18-12 12:00 PM (EST)
	I was thinking more about the float bags too and I think just one bag in the stern might make a big difference. One of the problems I had trying to empty water was that if I picked up the bow the stern would sink deeper. So I'd have to keep the boat in the air but start sliding my way towards the stern to try and get it raised out of the water, I just couldn't do it. But if there was a bag in the stern it should keep the back end from sinking when I lift the bow. That just might be enough to empty almost all the water before flipping. Now if only I had a float bag I'd try it tonight.... Alan

	float bag in one end only Posted by: nycmhandy on Jul-19-12 6:47 PM (EST)
	That makes the water-filled end really want to be the low end in the water, leaving the bagged end waving in the air. I haven't tried it in a canoe, which allows water to escape from the ends, but the problem can make a kayak unrescuable: you can't get the low end high enough to drain the water out through the cockpit. I'd be interested in hearing your experience. Mark

	Safe assumption Posted by: pgeorg on Jul-18-12 11:57 AM (EST)
	is that you will fail to get back in when you really need to. Therefore your thought about being very selective about open water crossings is the conservative approach to the issue. I do not expect to be able to self-rescue, into a solo canoe, in deep water and operate accordingly. Peter

	I'm wondering what kind of gear you had Posted by: FrankNC on Jul-18-12 12:13 PM (EST)
	You mentioned you had not bailer, so I'm guessing you had a standard electric pump and float bags? Even with the pump and flotation I usually want to bring a bailer if I'm more than a five minute swim from shallow water.

	Had nothing Posted by: alan_gage on Jul-18-12 3:17 PM (EST)
	I assume this question is posted to me. I didn't have anything along when I was practicing my re-entry. No pump, bailer, or even a sponge. To be honest I never take them with me when I'm canoeing. I'm usually on our local river, which is at most a class .5 and about 100-150 feet wide, or I'm on one of our local lakes where you can stand up almost anywhere, but you might sink up to your knees in mud. Or if I hit one of the larger lakes nearby there's plenty of other boats around to lend a hand, though I've never needed it. I do bring one along when I'm taking longer trips or travel to rivers where I might actually encounter some rapids though. Alan

	Solo Tripper Re-Entry Posted by: CEWilson on Jul-18-12 12:42 PM (EST)
	It's tough. The Capistrano Flip is pretty questionable with that heavy a boat, and if it works the hull may take flight on the wind anyway. Probably better to push the stern down and away, draining ~ 2/3 of the water in that manner. Benefits include keeping the rails lower for a mantle-shelf reentry across a bow quarter. This requires enough shoulder strength to load the far rail with the equivalent of one's torso weight to keep the rails ~ flat. [Can you do 50 pushups?] We always entry face first from the bow so we end up with our feet pointed forward, then roll upright in the bot and start bailing. Another option is to use a paddlefloat and loop a longish rescue strap from the paddle shaft under the boat, back across the rails and down into the water on the paddlefloat side, ~ a 180 in long sling. Then the swimmer just steps up into the boat, sits low and starts bailing. Alan is Soooo right to be working on this before the skills are needed in extremus.

	Had nothing... Posted by: FrankNC on Jul-18-12 6:05 PM (EST)
	Looks like most of the places you go, You would not need anything but to drag to shore and dump out the water. In deeper wider lakes and rivers I really like tied in flotation and a bailer.

	paddle float Posted by: latremorej on Jul-23-12 9:25 AM (EST)
	+1... I use the paddle float and step strap method. Works equally well in a canoe as a kayak. Paddle float also worked great to get my dog back into the boat when he got carried away and chased a green spinner bait (tennis ball color) into the lake. I usually rock the swamped boat port to stern quickly until about 70% of the water is out. This method works for me, may not for others. You do get a face full of water doing it though.

	Capistrano Flip Posted by: willi_h2o on Jul-18-12 7:48 PM (EST)
	-- Last Updated: Jul-18-12 7:53 PM EST -- Age old technique http://www.canoekayak.com/canoe/capistranoflipcanoe/ http://shiawassee-river.blogspot.com/2007/08/capistrano-flip-canoe-self-rescue.html Probably a bit tougher solo, I'll admit. Large canoe specific float bags are the ticket.

	all the above..... Posted by: bigspencer on Jul-18-12 9:03 PM (EST)
	-- Last Updated: Jul-18-12 9:16 PM EST -- Solo...big bags...hands-down favorite items. The written maneuver looks sound...as is all the previous stuff. Capistrano with tandem or bigger boat. Definitely one at a time, till really dry, with tandem paddler. With lighter boat I've had good luck with a big bag(or combined with a cut-free rear bag) hopping on the end to plunge the very end using the bag(s) as your fulcrum. A little tool...I'll tie two thick lengths of rope onto a near midships thwart so I can grab it while sitting on an end, I'll get them together so I can grab them both...then lean back to give it an inverted Titanic aspect and let go of one rope(where I'm falling off into)& pull to spin... One way that's worked when needed. $.01

	dry bag ? Posted by: Mattt on Jul-19-12 9:03 AM (EST)
	if you had any gear with you in a dry bag, you could try straddling/sitting on the bag as you try to flip the canoe - might give you enough extra bouyancy to do it I'm of the opinion that mostly it is better to just swim your boat to shore - likely that is going to be quicker than trying to deal with a boat load of gear, emptying the boat, getting in, recovering your gear, and then paddling to shore anyway.

	If possible Posted by: alan_gage on Jul-19-12 11:40 AM (EST)
	I agree that in most cases swimming to shore would probably be a quicker and easier option. But there are some cases were it simply isn't possible, either because hypothermia would set in before you made it to shore or wind/waves are preventing you from swimming that direction. A boat full of water is heavy and doesn't swim easily. Alan

	In those cases ... Posted by: Westbrancher on Jul-20-12 6:24 AM (EST)
	... I try to have end bags in my canoe, as someone else suggested. In most cases I don't bother, but I take the trouble of installing them for big, wide open water. Even with a full load of gear, a properly loaded canoe will have its bow and stern areas open. (Loading gear in these areas adversely affects the canoe's ability to pivot, as Cliff Jacobson and others have pointed out). I conducted an experiment like yours after my son was born. I wanted to know that I could right a swamped boat in any circumstances, just in case. My tandem boat is a big and somewhat beastly 17.5 Bell Alaskan. Righting this boat after a capsize in deep water is pretty well impossible. With float bags properly installed, it's no problem at all. It's really a very simple situation, but one that requires a little time, money, and energy to put in place. Likely your canoe will require p-rings or similar hardware along the gunwales and lash tabs on the floor in order to "cage" the bags with parachute cord. It took me a couple afternoons to get all of this in place.

	Tried again - Better results Posted by: alan_gage on Jul-21-12 11:11 PM (EST)
	Took the Osprey out for another try this evening with much better results. I don't have any float bags but I did manage to find my paddle float, which fit really nicely between the rear carry thwart and rear deck of the canoe. Just slip the paddle float between them, with about 3/4 of it above the gunwales, and fill it full of air. It was held in place very well this way. Now with a capsized canoe the back end floated high and dry and didn't sink when I'd pick up the bow. I still wasn't able to lift and flip the canoe high enough from the bow but I found a position that worked quite well. I'd actually get under the capsized boat (plenty of air space to breath) facing the stern with my back against the thwart ahead of the seat, so I'm about 1/4 of the way back from the bow. Grab a gunwale in each hand, lift the right side higher than the left (feels stronger for me) to break the seal and start draining some water and then give a mighty kick and shove to flip it over. It sounds a little simpler than it actually was. I still wasn't able to do this and keep my head above water so I actually let it push me under. After breaking the seal and getting the right side raised up a little I'd just go underwater and raise it as high as I could before kicking and flipping. Doing it this way I was consistently able to empty all but 3-5 gallons of water. With that amount of water re-entering was no problem. Also be sure to keep a hand on the gunwale when flipping it. The first time I didn't do this and the boat ended up about 4' away from me and drifting. Any breeze and I never would have caught up to it. After doing it a few times I timed myself. First time took 2min. 20 seconds to get back in the boat. I put the paddle float in wrong and it popped out after the second try so I had to reset it. On my second attempt everything went smooth and I was back in the boat in half the time (1 min. 10 sec). So I guess at this point I feel pretty confident that if I capsize in warm water, on a warm day, with no wind blowing, no gear in the boat, and no dog I'd have no problem reentering my canoe. What a relief. :) I'll be curious to see if an affixed stern bag works better or worse. Having the paddle float attached this way, with over a foot of it sticking up over the stern, really keeps the stern floating high and seems to help keep the water out during the flip. I also wonder how much difference built in bow/stern flotation would make. I haven't built any for my Osprey yet. I'll have to take my Magic out next time and see how it does. It's 6lbs lighter and has end tanks. It's also tippier so climbing back in might be more difficult. Alan

	nothing to add but "thanks" Posted by: puddlejockey on Jul-22-12 8:49 AM (EST)
	to all of you who are contributing to the board. It really does help those "lurkers" like us to start thinking about ( and practicing) some new skills. I took my Penobscot out when I first started paddling my own boat about 4 years ago, with a friend that was teaching me the ropes. Learning that rolling the boat wasn't a tragedy...and reentry techniques..were two of the first things that we covered. To be honest, solo reentry was something that I really struggled with, and never really got the hang of in deeper water. Since i wear an insulin pump (theoretically waterproof), reentry without "belly flopping" over the side, and potentially tearing out my infusion sight- is an extra challenge. You guys have given me some thoughts on work arounds for that. :) ( To save the replies; no, I don't plan on going swimming while wearing my pump; but that's sort of the definition of a problem: things that happen when you haven't scheduled them... )

	waterproof gear bags Posted by: peterj on Jul-22-12 11:23 PM (EST)
	A 3 cu ft gear bag with 50 # of stuff in it still offers over 100# of bouyancy. IF they are secured like air bags they will yield much of the same benefit.

	No no no no no Posted by: willi_h2o on Jul-22-12 11:46 PM (EST)
	-- Last Updated: Jul-22-12 11:48 PM EST -- Dry bags are never to be submerged, under water ! A roll top bag offers some protection, but not complete. They are not 100% waterproof, merely water resistant. Use gear for its intended design - don't make up stuff. *__Extremely Typical Disclaimer___* http://www.seattlesportsco.com/Content%20Instructions/Dry%20Bag%20instructions.pdf I'm NOT betting my life in open water on a dry bag

	weight Posted by: alan_gage on Jul-23-12 10:27 AM (EST)
	I thought of that too but worry that a 50 pound gear bag, that's now taken on some water, would make it impossible to raise the canoe high enough to flip it over while emptying the water. And the bag itself wouldn't be able to displace enough water on its own to just roll the boat over and expect it to be nearly empty. Although I haven't actually tried it either way it seems the best bet, at least for a solo boater, would be to let the gear bag float out of the canoe and retrieve it after re-entering. Alan

	Stick with tru Canoe Float Bags Posted by: willi_h2o on Jul-23-12 12:44 PM (EST)
	-- Last Updated: Jul-23-12 1:03 PM EST -- NRS makes items specific to canoe flotation http://www.nrsweb.com/shop/product_list.asp?deptid=1215 Of course they have to "locked in" via webbing, tethering, or something, to be useful and not float away Some people go solid foam http://www.aiguillealpine.co.uk/cgi-bin/trolleyed_public.cgi?action=showprod_E0329

	Float bags or dry bags... Posted by: steve_in_idaho on Jul-23-12 1:29 PM (EST)
	Kind of a silly argument. Can't think of any reason why one would want to use dry bags instead of float bags for flotation. But if you are carrying gear, having it in secured dry bags is better than having it take up the same space without the bag(s). Use float bags for flotation. But gear secured in dry bags in the remaining space is better than just empty space (after the gear dumps out). The idea is to have as much space as possible filled with something lighter than water that is attached to the boat. That being the case, swamping is much less of an issue.

	Is it? Posted by: alan_gage on Jul-23-12 9:54 PM (EST)
	"But gear secured in dry bags in the remaining space is better than just empty space (after the gear dumps out). The idea is to have as much space as possible filled with something lighter than water that is attached to the boat. That being the case, swamping is much less of an issue." After playing around with reentries a few times I wonder if that's actually the case. I realize that an empty canoe holds a lot of water, but it also releases that water easily when you turn it upside down. With a lightweight boat I can get dump most of the water with no flotation. With just a little flotation in the rear I can flip it over and have it pretty much empty. No way could I do that with gear strapped in the boat, it would be too heavy to lift. And with the loads most people carry I don't think the gear would displace enough water. But the more I think about it I suppose it depends on the situation. If all you want to do is swim the boat to shore in order to empty it out gear lashed in place would probably help rather than hinder. But if the goal is to empty the boat of water without reaching shore then I'd say an empty boat would be better. Alan

	Guess I wasn't clear... Posted by: steve_in_idaho on Jul-24-12 12:46 PM (EST)
	I know it won't hold if you habitually carry heavy gear - like dutch ovens and the like. But if the gear is in dry bags - which will float on flat water, if properly closed - the boat won't take on as much water as it would with that gear loose in the boat. Unless you take extraordinary measures against it, there will be air trapped in the dry bags. If the dry bags are secured in the boat, they will displace water. If with float bags and dry bags you still managed to swamp and/or turtle the canoe do the degree that you need to be able to lift the boat, you can still release the dry bags (they will float long enough if you did your part). But if all that water has been displaced except where you sit, how did you end up that bad off?

	Third try - this time with the Magic Posted by: alan_gage on Jul-23-12 10:11 PM (EST)
	Took out the Bell Magic tonight for more practice. This boat weighs 34 pounds (my Osprey is 40) and has built in flotation tanks bow and stern. With an empty boat I still wasn't able to consistently empty it of water. On my first try I emptied all but a few gallons and was very happy but I never got close to doing that good again. Then I pulled out the paddle float and installed it between the rear carry thwart and the stern of the canoe. It was held in place very well by pressure once it was inflated. With this installed I was easily able to empty the boat of all but about 1 gallon or less of water every time, sometimes even without my head being forced underwater. It was much easier than the Osprey, the 6lbs lighter weight being the big difference I'm sure. Reentering the Magic once it was emptied was really no harder than the Osprey. I only timed myself once and I was back in the boat in 1 minute even though I had a little difficulty fitting the paddle float. I think these were pretty real to life situations as there was plenty of cursing as my elbow whacked the gunwale when capsizing and I gave myself a killer bruise on the back of my thigh from sliding it over the gunwale on reentry. I even tried it with my dog. She was not impressed. Sadie likes being on the water, not in it. First I just jumped out without capsizing and reentered with her in the boat. No problem. Then I actually capsized it. After she managed to get out from under the upturned boat she made a mad dash towards shore. She was panicked and I didn't have the heart to try and stop her to complete the rescue. Thankfully she was still willing to get back into the canoe for a little paddle around the pond, although she seems a bit suspicious now. Next practice session will come when we get some wind. I'm sure Sadie won't mind watching from shore. Alan

	Water in a bag Posted by: willi_h2o on Jul-24-12 1:16 AM (EST)
	-- Last Updated: Jul-24-12 1:18 AM EST -- Sure wouldn't want to flip a boat with big ol' Duluth portage bags attached to it http://youtu.be/7gvx2bWHJvo http://duluthpack.com/monarchs-canoe-pack.html

	A couple of videos from the UK... Posted by: snowgoose.skipper on Jul-24-12 9:52 AM (EST)
	-- Last Updated: Jul-24-12 9:53 AM EST -- Here's a short video that includes self rescue just lifting one end of a solo canoe: http://www.youtube.com/watch?&v=39aM0tbG6VU How you support the other end is open to many answers, but bear in mind that lashed-in kit can displace water just as effectively as airbags... Here's another short video, this time showing a canoe just being rolled over and coming up without being completely swamped: http://www.youtube.com/watch?&v=EoBIq9_syb0 The secret there is the location of the support: here it's in the section of the canoe that's going to get submerged, not in floatation-tanks / bags in the stems - as these lift out of the water as you roll the canoe!