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  Stubborn Partner
  Posted by: pdawg67 on Jul-11-12 3:11 PM (EST)
   Category: Kayaks 

An individual with whom I paddle with on a semi-regular basis refuses to unlearn his arm paddling technique. He has been doing it for many years and actually takes great pride in his arm paddling as in the "breaking the rules and getting away with it" kind of pride. I cannot get him to even try to unlearn it as he just instantly quits after two or three attempts. He is not a beginner and has to unlearn many years of bad habits.

I am now undertaking trips where his refusal to learn proper paddling technique is presenting a potential safety liability.

He fully understands that arm paddling is not good, and he has actually bragged on more than one occasion of his arm paddling prowess. I pointed out to him on our last trip while we were in identical boats with identical paddles that I was doing 1 stroke to his 2 while running abreast with him. He replied to me that he was doing 2 and 1/2 to my one as if he had no care.

Does anyone have any ideas that I can use to coax him? I am nearing my wits end on this.

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Messages in this Topic

 
  "You can lead a horse to water..."
  Posted by: guideboatguy on Jul-11-12 3:34 PM (EST)
-- Last Updated: Jul-11-12 3:41 PM EST --

Probably best to leave him alone. He won't change his ways until he actually wants to. You can eliminate this current source of aggravation for him AND you by doing nothing. If you truly end up wearing him out on trips while you are traveling so much more efficiently, even then there's no need to say anything, except perhaps a brief reminder about the difference between your paddling styles if he brings up the issue first.

 
 
  stress distance and speed instead
  Posted by: jcbikeski on Jul-11-12 3:40 PM (EST)
For any trip it's reasonable to set a distance and minimum speed. While good form is great the key for a group is more about whether than can manage the minimum requirements. Now if he says he can't meet those requirements you could then mention that technique could help.
 
 
  offer him cookies?
  Posted by: bignate on Jul-11-12 4:20 PM (EST)
I dunno, if this guy is so obtuse as to take perverse pride in performing a skill in an inefficient manner, then I question whether there is any incentive that will change his mind.

I'm curious as to your statement about being a safety liability, though. What do you mean by this? If it's a matter of being unable to keep up with a group or getting tired overly quickly, then the solution is simple. You tell him that he's not invited on whatever trips you think he'd be a liability.

Finally, for whatever it's worth, in an instructing environment I find that the most effective way to teach/demonstrate good torso rotation isn't with the forward stroke, at least intiially. Instead, I like to focus on stern and draw strokes, where good torso rotation (or lack thereof) has a very visceral and more immediate impact on effectiveness. Maybe you could ask this guy to show you some sculling draws and reverse sweeps, but if he doesn't care about effectiveness anyways, it may be a lost cause.
 
 
  Stern rudder
  Posted by: pikabike on Jul-11-12 9:46 PM (EST)
Improving stern rudder helped me with forward stroke. A lot. I mean its "neutral" running position, not its variations for making slight steering corrections.
 
 
  Curious about expected issues
  Posted by: willowleaf on Jul-11-12 4:06 PM (EST)
I sympathize with you but admit I am curious about your "safety" concerns. Not out of skepticism but because I have run into that myself.

One of my own friends is the same way -- fortunately I have only taken him on short day trips but we had a borderline incident with him last week when I shepherded a group of relative novices on a river paddle to downtown Pittsburgh to watch the fireworks. Since we had to negotiate a 2 mile stretch of a major industrial river (sharing it with dozens of power boats and even coal barges) in the dark to get back to the put in ramp after the event, it was crucial that everyone stay together. My stubborn friend not only insists on arm paddling but leans back against the seat like he was in a fully reclined barcalounger and wants to use the rudder to steer while barely lily-dipping the paddle. I had to assign my loaner boats to the paddlers as best as I could match them to their skill and size so he ended up in a 17' sea kayak (Dagger Magellan with a Werner Shuna paddle) -- I was unable to convince him to leave the rudder flipped up.

Less than a third of the way back to the put in, he began to fall behind. I kept trying to drop back and stay with him but eventually he started to whine in distress that everyone was pulling ahead and that he was "having trouble" getting the kayak to track. It was windy and there were a lot of transverse boat wakes, but the rest of us were in what should have been more squirrelly boats and were proceeding nicely. I have paddled the Magellan often myself and had not trouble with it in any conditions. I tried to pull alongside and coach him but he resisted and kept blaming the boat. If there had been any shore access where I could have pulled him over and switched boats I would have but that was not an option. I got the others to drop back and stay near us because I sensed he was approaching panic mode and getting beligerent. I finally had to muster my "stern schoolteacher nun" voice and insist that he pull up at a bridge pier and let me flip up the rudder (it was obvious that the crossed waves and wakes were hitting it and pushing the boat around) and shove an inflatable seat cushion behind his back so he had to sit up straight. Still could not get him to rotate his torso or draw the paddle past his mid thigh on each stroke, but at least he admitted that paddling became easier at that point and we managed to get him back to the take out without a melt-down. He's one of these software PhD "world's greatest authorities" (think Sheldon Cooper on "Big Bang") and doesn't take advice well. For as often as he has kayaked he should be at a more competent level than he is so this is annoying to me.

My biggest concern on that trip was that his "issues" distracted me from keeping a closer eye on the three other paddlers with far less experience than him. Fortunately, they turned out to be troopers and had no problems at all (but then they all LISTEN to me). But it pissed me off that I had to baby him while being worried about the others, not to mention being distracted from what has always been a magical paddle, more so this year with a full moon silvering the waters.

At this point I no longer wish to paddle with this guy.

So I guess I am wondering what kind of trips you are contemplating with your own obstinate paddler and what your exact concerns are for impacts that might arise from his inefficient technique?
 
 
  Concerns
  Posted by: pdawg67 on Jul-11-12 4:44 PM (EST)
Willowleaf, at least I'm not alone here.

Two things that concern me here with him are that I sometimes do longer distance touring runs that involve open water and potentially challenging conditions. He gets mad when I leave him out of these trips but after last weekend I will only run on flat water close to the put in rivers with him until he develops proper technique. I took him on the run, because I knew the conditions would be mild sea wise though it was a hot day.

His lack of technique caused him to get into a state of heat exhaustion that was finally "cured" when I literally ordered him to get into the water to soak once we got to a point where we could land. He also got so super stubborn while in this state that I could have choked him. The other is that he cannot achieve enough speed to keep the boat moving properly amongst the waves which is another concern.

Like I said he is proud of the fact and brags that he is an arm paddler almost like it's the badge of being a tough guy or something.

I really want to help him cross the bridge and am hoping last weekend might have made an impact on him finally. He has the endurance of an ox, and the stubbornness of a mule. He's always been this way in other things too.

I just feel bad when he is waiting for me at the put in ragging me for going w/o him when I arrive back from one of these trips.
 
 
  still not directly an arm paddling issue
  Posted by: jcbikeski on Jul-11-12 4:58 PM (EST)
He needs to be able to match your distance and speed and do so without keeling over and that is what you need to stress. I think better form may be a path to that goal but they shouldn't be your requirements -- just the means to reach those requirements.
 
 
  True
  Posted by: pdawg67 on Jul-11-12 5:08 PM (EST)
He is one hell of an arm paddler though. I will grant him that. He has huge arms which helps him. He could pound me into the ground with better technique though.

I learned how to handle heat and exercise during my biking years so I do have a leg up there. I think I'm just going to stick with trips where I can enjoy his company w/o stressing him as I do love paddling with him. He is a devoted paddler and a good friend.

On the other hand, I'm just going to quit feeling guilty when I have to go do my thing too.
 
 
  get him a copy of Brent Reitz's
  Posted by: bowrudder on Jul-13-12 12:09 AM (EST)
forward paddling stroke DVD



Give it to him as a birthday present and let him sort it out with the DVD
 
 
  Technique
  Posted by: njkayaker on Jul-16-12 2:42 PM (EST)
If some one can't learn/use "proper" technique in calm/easy conditions, suggesting that they do so in more-challenging conditions makes no sense.

It takes some time and focus to practice/ingrain the proper technique.
 
 
  Easy Fix
  Posted by: jimyaker on Jul-11-12 4:10 PM (EST)
Tell him that torso rotation turns on the babes.
And they giggle at the silly arm paddlers.
 
 
  Arm paddling is not a safety issue
  Posted by: Celia on Jul-11-12 4:12 PM (EST)
So let the guy hurt himself. You've tried enough.

But there are often other lovely traits that go with this personality that do go to safety. We know at least a couple of people we know who steadfastly refuse to learn rescues and have a permanent relationship with a broomstick handle about some wacky way to handle waves or wind. We won't paddle with them. We are both getting too old to haul a panicked adult back into their boat who has not taken any advice to learn how to handle a problem.
 
 
  arm paddling can be a safety issue
  Posted by: bowrudder on Jul-13-12 12:11 AM (EST)
If he becomes listless half way across a channel because he's run out of steam, it can become a safety issue fast.
 
 
  Don't bother
  Posted by: rectorsquid on Jul-11-12 4:48 PM (EST)
"Does anyone have any ideas that I can use to coax him? I am nearing my wits end on this."

You should treat this the same as if the guy was small and weak and ignore the issue with lack of technique. What would you do if you paddled with someone who was a dwarf in a 75 lbs boat or had exceptionally weak muscles or something similar? Do the same thing and just go paddling without them if you need to go faster than them.

If someone is a problem because they are slower than the group, tell them to speed up or go home. That's it. It should have nothing to do with them ignoring your advice or being unwilling to learn what you want them to learn. If they can keep up with bad technique, that should be all that you care about.

So my advice, tell them to speed up if they want to paddle with you. Don't tell them they suck because no one wants to hear that that and you're being an ass if that's the way you approach this.

Dave
 
 
  ill be the first to say it
  Posted by: mcimes on Jul-11-12 4:48 PM (EST)
-- Last Updated: Jul-11-12 4:51 PM EST --

oh wait, no I wont

Obviously logic and reason arent working... paddle out half way on a trip, spend the night, get him drunk and duct tape a board to each arm while hes passed out? then he can only use his torso if he wants to get home. no, just kidding. my friend is the same way. she insists shes been doing it since she was a kid and already knows how to paddle. sometimes technique is just a losing battle.

 
 
  distance & speed
  Posted by: CapeFear on Jul-11-12 5:01 PM (EST)
I agree that distance and speed would be the key. If a person keeps up, I wouldn't see a problem. If they can't, they still get to choose to work on speed, or just continue paddling their comfortable pace with or without you in the long run.
If you want to push it, I might try this. Let your pace consistently challenge your partner's limits, and try, time to time, gently expressing your desire to cut out the lily dipping and paddle at an invigorated pace.

I always keep in mind that there are better paddlers out there that could do the same to me. Although I have to admit, I would gladly work on adjustments to improve my speed. But your situation is decidedly different. I will freely admit that I've forgone many paddles because on some days, I just can't enjoy taking 5 paddling hours to travel 10 miles. Other days I can have a lot of fun with it. But I can understand wanting someone as a paddling partner, but just wishing they would commit to developing speed more in line with what I enjoy.
Good luck, and may the compromises sway a little further your way.
 
 
  how are the rest of his skills
  Posted by: nickjc on Jul-11-12 5:23 PM (EST)
It seems those types are usually not that interested in improving the rest of their skills(boat control, rescue, navigation,etc) which is where the real hazards lie.
Either that or plan a trip with a 4 hour paddle into a 20kt wind and watch his elbows and shoulders explode. Maybe he can only learn the hard way.
 
 
  Skills
  Posted by: pdawg67 on Jul-11-12 5:38 PM (EST)
-- Last Updated: Jul-11-12 5:41 PM EST --

Actually, he can control the boat quite well and rescue himself too so it's not like he won't learn things. Wind does not bother him at all either. He's not too good with navigation though so I take the lead there.

He just refuses to quit arm paddling and admits that it is disadvantageous to his paddling.

We both big guys, and he recently acquired a paddle with a lot of catch to it. It is literally punishing to arm paddle it is all that I can say. I think it contributed to him having heat problems last weekend.

I think he may be getting psychologically ready to commit to quitting arm paddling so that is why I posted this topic.

I am going to be like a constant gentle water drip on stone with this situation. Thanks to everyone for your thoughts and advice.

 
 
  arm paddling.
  Posted by: radiomix on Jul-11-12 5:57 PM (EST)
I watched my father do a pretty strong arm paddle for a hundred miles in 18 hrs. right in front of me in a tandem boat. Your buddy will be fine.

Ryan L.
 
 
  Let it go !!!
  Posted by: seadart on Jul-11-12 5:58 PM (EST)
Mind your own business.
Paddling is supposed to be fun.

Several years ago I paddled with two members of this forum. One guy came out here to a meeting or something and wanted to paddle with us. As we left the marina area on Mission Bay he started to offer suggestions and criticisms of my forward stroke technique. JEEEZ was this guy irritating. He kept harping about what I was doing wrong ... after about a half hour I excused my self and paddled back to do some exploring on the coast on my own. This guy was probably right, he was one of the fastest people I have paddled with. But he gave up seakayking within a couple of years, and we never hear from him here at all. I still have my own lousy paddling style and still get out three or four times a week and still manage to keep up when I paddle with "Real Sea Kayakers."
 
 
  Good to Hear
  Posted by: pdawg67 on Jul-11-12 6:04 PM (EST)
Glad to hear there are some capable arm paddlers. He does have huge arms so that probably helps him.

Actually, I don't ride him too hard on it. I really do enjoy his company as he is a devoted paddler and great guy.

I'd probably be chasing him if he ever quits.
 
 
  Make him an offer
  Posted by: pikabike on Jul-11-12 9:23 PM (EST)
If he refrains from bragging about poor technique, then you will refrain from suggesting improvements, assuming the safety aspect is covered.

It would be irritating to hear someone often bragging about *good* technique. Bragging about arm-paddling must grate on the nerves. What's he trying to prove? Sure, it can be done; that's still not the same as being the best method of doing it.
 
 
  could be fear
  Posted by: willowleaf on Jul-11-12 10:53 PM (EST)
In past experience (leading/instructing people in rock climbing, XC skiing, mountaineering, using construction equipment) I've noticed that when some individuals cling stubbornly, even defensively, to counterproductive methods it tends to be rooted in fear, of either harm or of being embarassed by an awkward mishap.

With that in mind, I've been thinking back years ago to when I was first coached through the body movements of torso rotation. I was fortunate to have an outstanding teacher, a former Canadian national slalom champion and expert sea kayaker. But I can still remember being nervous when first trying it, feeling the boat yaw slightly under the shift in body position on each stroke. Even once I got used to it I still tended to lock my body straight forward when the water got rough. It took the better part of that summer for me to break the habit and trust the boat's stability.

You say your reluctant friend is heavy -- do you think it could be that he gets freaked out by the feel of the boat's subtle position change during that weight shift from winding up with the blade plants? Also, some people with really big bellies don't rotate easily.

I'd be more concerned about his apparent failure to monitor and mitigate his own condition (becoming overheated). The very first lesson I always taught students in any wilderness sport was how to stay aware of their own condition. They needed to recognize the early signs of hypo- and hyper-thermia, dehydration, low blood sugar, etc. and know how to correct them so they would not become a burden to their companions. He was lucky you were attentive enough to spot it.
 
 
  Maybe
  Posted by: pdawg67 on Jul-12-12 1:40 AM (EST)
You're right, there probably are some movement fears involved. You have to have trust in the boat being technically able to handle things for you while you stay in proper sync with the boat's movements. I always have an image of being a fishing bobber when I am in funky conditions as a mental construct. This balancing act is also one area that my mountain biking experience translates very nicely over to kayaking as you have to be one with both the bike and kayak. You're also right about the importance of recognizing the early symptoms of heat and cold induced body temperature imbalances.

Actually, that heat issue was the scariest part for me and also a valuable lesson for me in that I am going to be way more aggressive in dealing with that issue in the future.

As for the paddling technique, I'm just going to slow down and take the time to smell the flowers when I'm with him. I'm seeing two schools of thought in this thread. The live and let be group and those who see it as a problem. In actuality, doing it that way does move one forward so it works on one level. Though, I am convinced it contributed greatly to the heat issues he experienced.

I tend to be a hyper-aware type who is always striving for perfection and improvement so that is my cross to bear. However, I derive pleasure from that challenging aspect of the sport. Whereas another may be just as happy paddling .5 miles while drinking 15 beers and smoking a pack or two of cigarettes.

To each his own, but being outdoors does require a situational awareness at all times. I failed by not being more insistent that he cool himself off when I first noticed the symptoms. I was very happy when he began to regain function after cooling himself down in the water though. He was very happy too.
 
 
  Comfort
  Posted by: pdawg67 on Jul-11-12 10:47 PM (EST)
I think trying to learn it takes him out of his comfort zone which is also a major point of resistance for him too.

I remember years ago when I switched from being an arm paddler it took some conscious effort on my part to train the muscles, but I had only been paddling a month before I began to break the habit so it was not as deeply ingrained.

The human body is capable of about 100 watts of power and any gain in efficiency has its reward especially in this sport. I do like the advice about showing him drawing sculls and sweeps as a way of getting him used to using his torso plus it will keep me from coming off as preachy which I do not want to be.

Thanks to all for your help.
 
 
  Moral theology, without a moral
  Posted by: Glenn_MacGrady on Jul-12-12 12:18 AM (EST)
In recent ex cathedra Pnet threads I have learned that newbie rec kayakers spurn all paddling techniques and that grizzled canoeists scoff at entrained breathing techniques.

Well, I'm just not going to waste my breath on those grizzlies, and I may silently snicker when they suffer IMF (inspiratory muscle fatigue) in their golden Medicare years.

Meanwhile, at the put in of the Patterson Great Swamp, I was chatting with two older guys, very proud of their brand new Old Town Camper from LL Bean. Nicely bagged. Balanced on top of foam blocks balanced on top of a factory rack. One inch carabiners placed every two feet along each gunwale -- something I've never, ever, ever seen before.

But I didn't ask what they were for because I was mesmerized by ... the fact that ... they were both holding their bent shaft paddles backwards.

I silently pondered the moral and theological implications of saying something. I made my mind up as to what to do. I'm not breathing a word of my decision here, but I didn't paddle the Great Swamp that day.
 
 
  If he's keeping up...
  Posted by: TexasLady on Jul-12-12 2:33 AM (EST)
Let it go. I take 2 steps to every one my husband takes, but he doesn't make fun of me or threaten to leave me home because I have to work harder to keep up. Personally, I'm a little surprised at so much agreement with your criticism of your friend's technique. I think you're putting too much emphasis on how he's putting the paddle in the water. Nothing wrong with helping people, but at this point, you're just being critical and a control freak. If I were in his shoes, I'd look for a better friend to paddle with. If he's getting the job done, mind your own business and enjoy the friendship instead of lecturing him.
 
 
  Resistance
  Posted by: rjd9999 on Jul-12-12 5:40 AM (EST)
As you point out, he is resistant to suggestions of improvement and you describe that he is defensive about this shortcoming and has decided to claim it as a virtue, instead (as in, "sure, I could have climbed the mountain with two hands and dropped the can of Mountain Dew, but anyone can do that.")

The options you have are either to not inform him, nor invite him on certain trips or to accept this limitation until it becomes a real liability. This may not be a safety issue now, but nature and time have a way of finding and exploiting a weakness.

Rick
 
 
  if you can't let him be,
  Posted by: lyngo on Jul-12-12 7:17 AM (EST)
Try sending him a video. Brent Reitz Forward Stroke Clinic was my first and is great, but there are several others made since then. Greg Barton & Ben Lawry both have good ones.

Lyn
 
 
  ROFL
  Posted by: suiram on Jul-12-12 7:46 AM (EST)
For disclaimer - I am all about technique, be it paddling, or nit picking
I strongly suspect that your irritation is more about you and not your paddling partner

So, my suggestion
1. Look up who Jon Turk is
2. Watch him paddle
3. Get back to us.
 
 
  Nice
  Posted by: pdawg67 on Jul-12-12 8:34 AM (EST)
-- Last Updated: Jul-12-12 10:41 AM EST --

Thanks for this.. Jon Turk is amazing and inspirational. I am no where near his level of adventure. If I were, it would be in warmer climates. I think I'll drop his name to the next power boater that thinks I'm crazy.

Now, to defend myself from your point, it really is not about me. I am no where near perfect in any aspect of my life, and I fully accept that. I am also quite happy to paddle with him. We have a friendship where we can be quite open with each other too. Trust me, he busts my chops on a regular basis. I'd paddle a 1 acre fishing pond with him and love it.

The only reason I brought it up to the forum is that I firmly believe it contributed to him getting heat exhaustion on a trip and was looking for some advice on how to properly handle the situation. For those of you who live in cooler climates, heat exhaustion can potentially lead to deadly consequences and must be taken very seriously.

Personally, I've come to the conclusion that I am just going to let sleeping dogs lie and just enjoy my limited time on Earth paddling with him whenever possible. Thanks to everyone for the advice. It figured greatly in me reaching this decision.

 
 
  If it works for him, then let it work.
  Posted by: Ayornamut on Jul-12-12 8:35 AM (EST)
Look at it this way...he is getting twice the workout you are! ;^)

I have a friend who has become an excellent seakayaker in the last few years. She has been on many extended trips, far off shore, through strong waves, tidal currents and heavy winds. Yet she refuses to paddle any way except with an unfeathered paddle. We have tried to tell her a number of times to try a feathered blade, it will help her with high wind conditions. But she doesn't want to practice even in calmer conditions. She even wind flipped once when a sudden microburst hit; we were trying to head into a cove and the wind probably hit 50-60kts. Oh well, she still is a strong paddler and I'll paddle with her anywhere.
 
 
  Why should she switch?
  Posted by: gstamer on Jul-12-12 9:28 AM (EST)
So, are you insinuating that a kayaker must use a feathered paddle to have excellent skills or be safe? Why would you ask her to switch?

How would you take it if she insisted that you paddle unfeathered? She could easily argue with you that feathered is only an advantage in head winds, and is a disadvantage in beam and tailwinds.

My preference for neutral behavior in violent winds would be an unfeathered Greenland paddle, but I wouldn't push this choice on my peers. I use my wing unfeathered as well, for consistency in my reflexive brace.

Greg Stamer
 
 
  (well...
  Posted by: Ayornamut on Jul-12-12 11:10 AM (EST)
-- Last Updated: Jul-12-12 11:13 AM EST --

(it was a little on the sarcastic side, implying that what work for someone is what works for someone and unless they want to change and seek out the mechanism to do so, they probably won't)

But I often wondered about the advantage of WW paddles with 90 degree feather. For those of you ancient enough to remember, many WW paddles were so configured back in the day. I still have my old Dagger wooden paddle with 90 degree feather. It's pretty much a wall decoration now, a reminder of good times. But a 90 degree feather certainly wasn't for wind, since rarely do you encounter extreme wind conditions in WW where it would make much of a difference. However, it does allow you to slap down a power face brace on the opposite side of your power stroke quickly in case you need it.

 
 
  Success
  Posted by: pdawg67 on Jul-12-12 9:35 AM (EST)
-- Last Updated: Jul-12-12 11:03 AM EST --

Well,

I just got off the phone with my friend. He is now hell bent on unlearning his arm paddling. I did not even bring up the subject either.

He's been studying it on his own recently and is ready to take the leap.

I am very thrilled as he called me just to tell me that.

To finalize my view, I can actually drive my car in first gear everywhere I go and still get there. That is pretty much the way I view arm paddling. However, my view of true friendship is that a good friend has a license to try to intervene with me whenever I go astray. I will do the same for mine in a diplomatic manner.

Is my kayaking technique worthy of that of the Gods? Of course not, that is a silly notion to even entertain. Will I continue to improve? You can bet your life on that.

Godspeed to everyone...

 
 
  He's wrecking his shoulder. Pain, loss
  Posted by: suntan on Jul-12-12 10:52 AM (EST)
of use, lost paddling time and maybe even surgury is ahead. Might seem okay now...
 
 
  Arm paddling
  Posted by: jaybabina on Jul-12-12 11:27 AM (EST)
-- Last Updated: Jul-12-12 1:12 PM EST --

Most paddlers arm paddle and do just fine. After a while they start slowly adapting to using a bit more body rotation but nothing like many paddle stroke classes teach. Using a lot of body in a paddle stroke takes a lot more energy. It works well if the paddler is trained for it. But for a paddler who is not trained for it, a lot of torso rotation will run them out of steam long before just using their arms. Big muscle groups require big energy. You will get more power but at the cost of more needed energy.

Why force someone to be something they don't want to be. If you show someone something and they don't want it, then that's it.

Torso rotation paddling is not easier. it's better in many ways once the paddler is in shape for it.

 
 
  Momentum
  Posted by: pdawg67 on Jul-12-12 11:51 AM (EST)
Actual propulsion is based on the momentum imparted by the paddle onto a certain mass of water. You move a mass of water with the paddle and and your boat moves forward in response to Newton's law. Every action has an equal and opposite reaction so you move.

Momentum is defined as mass times velocity. Torso rotation allows one to apply more mass to moving a certain mass of water than arm paddling. Therefore, you move the same mass of water more efficiently versus flailing away at arm paddling as arms have less mass than torsos.

That being said. It feels totally unnatural which is why most beginners want to arm paddle. I remember making my transition, and it took much mental effort and focus. Once I made the transition, it became as natural as can be.
 
 
  agree and disagree
  Posted by: jcbikeski on Jul-12-12 11:54 AM (EST)
I agree it's not as vital to avoid arm paddling as say having good rescue skills or good bracing. But it's NOT the case that using torso rotation is more demanding in any way even for those in very poor shape. If you torso rotate gently (small blade, mellow strokes) then you can do better than more demanding arm paddling and not feel tired. It does take time and practice and you should give yourself kudos for partial gains in this effort since it need not be perfect to get some benefits.

My whole life was spent doing leg oriented sports like hiking, cycling and skiing and I very rarely did weight training for my upper body. So when I started paddling five years or so ago I was at a disadvantage keeping up with others. So I started early working hard to get good torso rotation and it paid off very nicely. I am now a bit stronger in my upper body but I have been able to best many with huge, weight trained arms.
 
 
  True
  Posted by: pdawg67 on Jul-12-12 12:17 PM (EST)
Rescue and bracing skills are essential parts too unless you enjoy hanging out with the Bull and Tiger Sharks as you get swept out to sea. I also think the ability to keep an eye on the weather is also very important too as well as situational awareness.

Kayaking is a continuing spectrum skilled sport that is perfectly suited to my love of learning and being on the water. I just focus on improving things one step at a time.

You also get into the many variables of your physique in choice of paddle blade and paddling style. I'm a large guy, not fat, so I can get away with using a high catch blade as a touring paddle as I have a lot of upper body mass to generate that momentum. Whereas, a smaller framed person would get wore out by my choice of paddle and would be better suited by a smaller blade and a faster cadence.

The beauty of this sport is that you can take it wherever you want to go. There is no judgement on my part on anyone, and how they choose to experience it. Well, as long as you're not a litter bug.
 
 
  can i just make an observation?
  Posted by: radiomix on Jul-12-12 12:08 PM (EST)
Everyone arm paddles by definition.

Ryan L.
 
 
  true
  Posted by: jcbikeski on Jul-12-12 12:18 PM (EST)
Torso rotation helps a lot but I admit some will talk almost as though you do so _instead_ of using arms. Even if you had the most rigid arms imaginable you are at least doing the isometric workout of keeping those arms rigid while forces act on the paddle. And of course why not include the arms with the torso to share the load. So it's more a matter of having more and bigger muscles _helping_. Another benefit of torso rotation though is that it tends to help avoid moving an arm behind you which is very hard on ones shoulders.

But still I wouldn't overly nag a buddy to avoid arm paddling.
 
 
  Nagging
  Posted by: pdawg67 on Jul-12-12 12:34 PM (EST)
I really did not nag him too hard over the years. He has just decided to unlearn it which makes me very proud.

Now, the arms and hands are an integral and very important part of the paddling experience as they do come into play in so many other ways. So as Ryan eloquently points out, we are all arm paddlers.

They just are not the most efficient way to generate power. I refer back to my earlier point of being able to drive my car in first gear w/o ever shifting.

I love starting this thread. There's a lot of passion to it on both sides.

The most important thing is to always arrive alive IMHO.
 
 
  right
  Posted by: radiomix on Jul-12-12 1:24 PM (EST)
i once saw an interview with Tommy yonley about a good paddle stroke. I don't remember exactly what he said, but it started with plant the blade and then pull really hard. Of course it is way more complex, but I think his point was made.

No one is really just arm paddling. Unless they are sitting perfectly straight forward and only using the stroke side arm in a scraping back motion. Just keeping the stroke side arm locked for the first half of the pull engages the whole upperbody.

I like when I see people over rotating themselves leaving the blade in the water well past their hips.

Paddle strokes are personal and evolving. Of course there is a best way, but that's for Olympians. Real students of the game have people whose stroke they most admire, it doesn't make the others bad at it.

Ryan L.
 
 
  ...
  Posted by: jcbikeski on Jul-12-12 1:29 PM (EST)
"No one is really just arm paddling. Unless they are sitting perfectly straight forward and only using the stroke side arm in a scraping back motion. Just keeping the stroke side arm locked for the first half of the pull engages the whole upperbody."

Actually quite a few beginners do exactly this. Their arms are never straight because they don't reach forward. With a brand new paddler I only briefly mention torso rotation and instead just suggest they reach for their toes as the best first step to easier paddling.
 
 
  grab a cold one...
  Posted by: gstamer on Jul-12-12 2:50 PM (EST)
"Actually quite a few beginners do exactly this. Their arms are never straight because they don't reach forward. With a brand new paddler I only briefly mention torso rotation and instead just suggest they reach for their toes as the best first step to easier paddling".

Another mental image (that works for a surprisingly large amount of the population) is to have a student imagine that the last beer is all the way at the back of the fridge, just out of reach of their arm, and they have to turn their body to reach it... :)

Greg Stamer
 
 
  over rotating
  Posted by: CapeFear on Jul-12-12 2:59 PM (EST)
In a scenario where someone was over rotating and bringing the blade well past their hips, it seems like it could be better described as rotating and pulling their arms back too far. This seems to describe someone starting to use torso rotation, but still wanting to feel that pull in their arms. I think I was there for a while. Once they convince themself that the arm pull is weaker and no longer necessary, the blade will no longer go past the hip. So over-arming, not over-rotating, I would think would be a better description?
 
 
  seems fair
  Posted by: radiomix on Jul-12-12 3:57 PM (EST)
Ryan L.
 
 
  fun reading this
  Posted by: castoff on Jul-12-12 9:49 PM (EST)
Sounds like you are good friends, and best of luck paddling together.

Over the years in commercial beekeeping and working construction in the south at times in 100+ heat and high humidity one has to be aware of the body. Situational awareness is much more important than many people often realize.
 
 
  I like the idea of getting him a DVD
  Posted by: bowrudder on Jul-13-12 12:33 AM (EST)
If he wants to do it (and now it sounds like he does), he can get the instruction step by step at his own pace. I used the Brent Reitz DVD and highly recommend it, although there are others out there too. Then get him Nigel Foster's DVD #3 on directional control as a treat! ;-)
 
 
  Stubborn partner
  Posted by: jerrysmith on Jul-13-12 9:07 PM (EST)
I know people who paddle now the same way they did the first week they bought their first kayak. It's voluntary ignorance, and they are happy at that level.
It sounds like your partner is happy with his position on the learning curve. You probably won't change his mind.
 
 
  I understand why this bugs you
  Posted by: Waterbird on Jul-13-12 10:25 PM (EST)


You and your friend don't seem compatible as paddling companions. You have different paddling and personality styles and values. Some will say it shouldn't matter and you should get over it. Personally, I find that certain things about a paddling companion really bug me, like people who talk too loud. I really value my time on the water and don't want it to be ruined by the wrong partner. So I can understand that this guy's paddling style and his attitude about it bother you.

I think you should give him an ultimatum. If he really wants to paddle with you he will work on his style. If he's not willing to do that, he will have to find a partner who is equally uninterested in paddling skills.
 
 
  some people just know everything
  Posted by: rrose on Jul-15-12 1:26 AM (EST)
and make certain they tell you what you are doing wrong. The companion paddler is a liability in more ways than just the arm paddling. O gifted one that knows better, why must you try to train him? Neither one of you are enjoying the experience..."Don't try to teach a pig to sing... and it annoys the pig..." Some folks just have given up listening and putting up with know-it-alls, even if the know-it-all has their best interest at heart. Its too bad we can't all get along, but then there are different strokes for different folk...get a new paddling partner or better yet, paddle solo.
 
 
  We're Both Stubborn That's Why.
  Posted by: pdawg67 on Jul-15-12 6:44 AM (EST)
-- Last Updated: Jul-15-12 7:04 AM EST --

Actually, we're both stubborn goats who have known each other almost 30 years.

I will always paddle with him and paddle solo whenever I feel it too. He rags me hard whenever I paddle solo, but I do not mind. My work schedule is amenable to it.

Also, I'm not nearly in the gifted department. I'm just someone who always seeks to continuously improve myself no matter what the endeavor. Self-improvement that is self-motivated is the one major area where we are polar opposites though.

I also helped him to break his excessive consumption of sugar too which caused him major health problems, so I know he can change. He's broken me of bad things I used to do like excessive drinking. We both rag each other since the day we met whenever one feels the other is doing something wrong. Personally, I think it is healthy. Neither one of us can ever keep our mouths shut. Sometimes it can be quite comical.

Friends are supposed to tell you things others are too chicken to tell you. FYI: He's also recently committed to unlearning arm paddling. I also had very little to do with it. I will be there to lend a helping hand though as I am his friend.

I like paddling with him because he has a spirit of adventure that a lot of folks lack, even with his arm paddling which soon he will not be.

I do thank everyone for their input. You're keeping me on track in this ongoing work.

 
 
  It sounds like
  Posted by: captainsmollett on Jul-15-12 4:36 PM (EST)
two stubborn paddlers. I'm sure there are things you do wrong too. Let it go.
 
 
  It sounds like a good friendship to me
  Posted by: bowrudder on Jul-16-12 1:28 PM (EST)
 
 
  A simple trick
  Posted by: Boyscout on Jul-15-12 6:00 PM (EST)
Here are a few tricks to helping him get used to new technique. Get them used to one thing/step at a time. start with the first part then move to next step. A easy way to get someone used to torso rotation is the eyes. if they follow the paddle with there eye.often the body will turn were you look. It doesn't take much time getting used to rotation like this. Not commenting on what you should do. But maybe this way of learning could open him up to using a different paddling style.
 
 
  Can't change anyone's behavior
  Posted by: ness on Jul-15-12 7:27 PM (EST)
-- Last Updated: Jul-15-12 7:35 PM EST --

but your own. One of the best life lessons I ever learned.

Glad to hear he sees the light. You sound like you are a good friend to him. Count your blessings.

 
 
  Today's Outing
  Posted by: pdawg67 on Jul-15-12 9:00 PM (EST)
He began to break the habit today, and he told me that he sees the benefit. I could tell a huge difference too as even his confidence was vastly improved.

For those of you that keep throwing back in my face that I'm not perfect. You are so right that I am not perfect in so many ways, including paddling. I even accept it, but I really do try to fix whatever is my most important imperfection. However, there is always the next imperfection to overcome. I have too many imperfections to even bother counting. Imperfection is a condition of life in general.

Guess what, none of us are perfect paddlers or perfect in anything in life which is why we should keep on learning and never give up on anything.

Never stop learning!! Accept nothing less.
 
 
  Paddling cadence
  Posted by: njkayaker on Jul-16-12 2:27 PM (EST)
"I pointed out to him on our last trip while we were in identical boats with identical paddles that I was doing 1 stroke to his 2 while running abreast with him. He replied to me that he was doing 2 and 1/2 to my one as if he had no care."

The 1-to-2 stroke stuff might not be relevant. Some people use a higher stroke rate (cadence) with shorter strokes. This isn't wrong.
 
 
  Very True on Cadence Differences
  Posted by: pdawg67 on Jul-16-12 9:14 PM (EST)
You are absolutely right. You can move the exact same amount of water mass using either strategy. I think a smaller framed person with a less catchy blade may be served better by your suggestion. It's all based on the mass of water you can throw back with your paddle per unit time.

However, a larger paddler having more mass and using a high catch blade is more efficient at using his greater mass and the higher catch blade to transfer his natural momentum to the water so he can paddle more slowly and achieve the same results. As he is moving a larger volume of water with each stroke he will have a greater forward propulsion force therefore greater speed.

Either strategy is totally valid once you take your personal physique and paddling style into consideration. For the record, I am a high angle paddler who uses higher catch blades. This is a very personal sport and what is better for me may be bad for someone else.

You are the engine and your paddle is your drive train. There are 4 cylinder paddlers that run at higher cadence and V8 paddlers that run a lower cadence. We all do X knots at the exact same speed as we are limited by our native hull speed among other things.

It's just the V8 paddler with proper blade choice will run at the same speed at a slower cadence as he has more momentum by nature of his larger size. You have to pick a style that best matches you and your physique.

Seriously, it was like he was a totally different paddler yesterday after he quit his arm paddling. Quite successfully I might add.

No matter what any of you say, I will go on record as saying strict "arm paddling" is not the best way to go. I really do not care if person X can pull it off. He would be that much of a better paddler by learning not to arm paddle.
 
 
  Hurt him
  Posted by: Photobug on Jul-16-12 9:32 PM (EST)
I would find a paddle that you can take him on a long trip where you can put the hurt on him while still being safe. Take him on a long group trip that has a place to land and use his huge arms to carry his boat to the road awaiting for you to return in the car when he gets too fatigued.

Hopefully he will see the limitations of his technique and want to improve or at least understand when you don't take him on "those" type of trips.
 
 
  Funny
  Posted by: pdawg67 on Jul-17-12 11:08 AM (EST)
-- Last Updated: Jul-17-12 11:13 AM EST --

I might resort to that, but he is beginning to see the light now. We had a conversation about it on the way home that went quite well as he was quite pleased with himself and I he.

We were on a group trip yesterday, and I think a little peer pressure in front of some very highly skilled folks may have had a little something to do with it.

Seriously, he was like a totally different kayaker once he stopped the arm paddling. I'd look behind me and there he was right on my tail just like it should be.

Thanks to everyone for helping. You all helped me think about things properly as it was a delicate situation.

Also, to all defenders of arm paddling. My only words are you cannot win in a battle against Physics.

 
 
  Said like a true friend ;-)
  Posted by: pikabike on Jul-17-12 1:23 PM (EST)
Tough love!
 
 
  This has been an interesting thread
  Posted by: clarion on Jul-17-12 11:19 AM (EST)
Glad to hear it worked out for the best all around. You two are both luck to have such good paddle partners.
 

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