9' Closed Deck Rec Kayak okay for ocean?

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9' Closed Deck Rec Kayak okay for ocean?
Posted by: Wayfarista on Jun-19-12 11:19 PM (EST) Category: Kayaks

I'm fairly new to kayaking, but have some experience including wet exiting on a white water kayak in a rapid. I am strong and comfortable in with getting a little roughed up or having a kayak flip (i.e. I am not a panic-er). I live on the coast in Santa Barbara (most often surf is quite small and I would only go on calm days). I'd like to get a cheap, small (9ft) kayak that will be easy transport and to mess around in and take short trips along the coastline (not far off shore, 1-2 hours weekday, maybe 4 hrs weekend,~1-6miles range). For the low price I will go with Emotion Glide.

I prefer a closed deck kayak (not sit on top). I know the sit on top is supposed to be better for ocean for safety reasons, but I'm trying to gauge just how unsafe a closed deck will be. My main concern is if you do capsize in the open water (not in a protected flat bay, but still on a calm day and ~50 yds off shore), will the boat really fill a ton of water and sink? Even if has an inflated bag in it? What are the odds of that happening as a result of a flip over? I'm fine with the idea that the boat will be slow on less than flat water, I just want to be sure I am not doing anything deadly and that I completely understand the risk. I was not able to find a lot of info based on reality online so I'm hoping to draw from people's observations and experiences...so, got any advice or warnings I should be aware of? Thank you very much!

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Table of Contents

9' Closed Deck Rec Kayak okay for ocean? - Wayfarista - Jun-19-12 11:19 PM
- Tours - carldelo - Jun-19-12 11:48 PM
- Have you ever used rec kayak on ocean? - Wayfarista - Jun-19-12 11:54 PM
  - Not a good choice. - seadart - Jun-20-12 12:15 AM
    - Boat suggestions - Wayfarista - Jun-20-12 12:30 AM
      - Utilitarian uses - Wayfarista - Jun-20-12 12:34 AM
      - Easier to roll over.... - Celia - Jun-20-12 8:39 AM
      - More info .... - seadart - Jun-20-12 2:14 PM
    - second Seadart - Peter-CA - Jun-20-12 12:48 AM
- Go Cheap - willi_h2o - Jun-20-12 12:34 AM
  - When do you need a rescue? - Wayfarista - Jun-20-12 12:41 AM
    - Skip the kayak - Go Swimming - willi_h2o - Jun-20-12 12:49 AM
    - Please - jbd - Jun-20-12 7:56 AM
    - when you are in over your head - LeeG - Jun-20-12 9:01 AM
    - If on the cheap... - ByronWalter - Jun-20-12 9:12 AM
- no - LeeG - Jun-20-12 4:02 AM
- No no - Celia - Jun-20-12 7:49 AM
- A roll is one self rescue tool - kayamedic - Jun-20-12 9:19 AM
- I have had the same question - bartc - Jun-20-12 9:47 AM
- save me tax money - nermal - Jun-20-12 9:54 AM
- Only if you get flotation - Kocho - Jun-20-12 10:05 AM
  - CKF.org - Seadddict - Jun-20-12 10:46 AM
    - Will look up the club - Wayfarista - Jun-21-12 10:40 PM
  - Flotation - bartc - Jun-20-12 3:48 PM
    - A Good Test - yes - Kocho - Jun-20-12 5:29 PM
      - Then you did find out - bartc - Jun-20-12 9:41 PM
- Yes but really NO! - castoff - Jun-20-12 10:28 AM
- What about crossover kayaks for her? - ShadyClip - Jun-20-12 11:30 AM
  - As above... - Celia - Jun-20-12 1:44 PM
- invest your money wisely - willowleaf - Jun-20-12 2:30 PM
  - Good find - carldelo - Jun-20-12 4:11 PM
  - Pass on the Tico ... - seadart - Jun-20-12 4:20 PM
    - Saw it, decided I was not ready! - Wayfarista - Jun-21-12 10:39 PM
- Yes, if you are careful - Glenn_MacGrady - Jun-20-12 4:55 PM
  - Funny who it works out. - FrankNC - Jun-20-12 10:01 PM
  - You meant SOT, right? - Celia - Jun-22-12 6:07 AM
- THANK YOU ALL!!!! - Wayfarista - Jun-21-12 10:42 PM
  - Whoah! - bartc - Jun-22-12 9:25 AM
    - rec boats usage - Peter-CA - Jun-22-12 1:09 PM
      - Read it there and agree. - bartc - Jun-22-12 5:21 PM
  - REI? stop the presses! - slushpaddler - Jun-22-12 11:13 AM
    - hit and miss - Peter-CA - Jun-22-12 1:58 PM
- Great joke! - rnsparky - Jun-22-12 11:05 AM
  - It's sad that the ACA doesn't do more - willi_h2o - Jun-22-12 1:20 PM
    - I disagree - jbd - Jun-23-12 9:43 AM
- Don't know the boat, but.. - rjd9999 - Jun-22-12 10:03 PM

Messages in this Topic

  Tours
  Posted by: carldelo on Jun-19-12 11:48 PM (EST)

I think it would make a great deal of sense for you to go on some tours with outfitters in your area. They will know the details of the local paddling, be able to recommend appropriate and safe equipment, reasonable solo destinations, etc.

I'm a paddling loner myself, and almost always go alone. But the first year I rented to learn about equipment and get some paddling pointers and safety skills. The second and third year I had my own equipment, but still went on some guided tours and joined a local paddling club for group paddles. I've left that behind, mostly, but in the process learned what I'm comfortable doing on my own, and know how to use the equipment I have.

And you can't underestimate the value of having a good, efficient forward stroke. I had a couple of good teachers early on, and it was a big help.

  Have you ever used rec kayak on ocean?
  Posted by: Wayfarista on Jun-19-12 11:54 PM (EST)

Thank you for the response, that's definitely a good idea to take a local tour. I have a friend who teaches, but she is up north and I plan to learn from her soon (though she couldn't recommend for or against the rec yak in the ocean). I'm sure any outfitter is going to recommend a sea kayak for the sea (which right now I am not willing to pay for). What boats have you used on the ocean and what was your experience with them?

  Not a good choice.
  Posted by: seadart on Jun-20-12 12:15 AM (EST)

-- Last Updated: Jun-20-12 12:16 AM EST --

The problem is the ocean does not cooperate with the best laid plans, if you paddle on the open coast you will discover winds and rogue set waves can change what you thought was an easy safe day. The big problem with boats like the glide is the big cockpit fills with water and it is a big hassle getting it back to shore, in bad conditions more than a big hassle, just not worth it.

I have several kayaks SOTs and SINKS and waveskis and I surf and paddle the coastline in San Diego often, and come up to Ventura and Rincon to surf every fall. One of my favorite boats for doing what you want to do is an 8'2" necky jive whitewater kayak, very sea worthy and you can surf it, play in rock gardens, it just doesn't go very fast. My other favorite choice is a 9'6" Cobra Strike Sit on Top, I actually do most of my coastal paddles in that boat, just cruising the rocks and caves and looking for places to surf. You can usually find both of these boats used on Craigslist for $300 -350.

  Boat suggestions
  Posted by: Wayfarista on Jun-20-12 12:30 AM (EST)

Wow, that is exactly the advice I've been looking for, thank you! I thrive on details and explanations so the tip about the cockpit size is very helpful. I hope you don't mind me picking your brain a little bit more...

I just looked at the Necky Jive online...is it more sea worthy because of a smaller cockpit? Or what about it makes it better for the sea versus the clunkier rec kayaks? I see the boat shape has more rocker as well (which is what I imagine helps with surfing it). Will a white water boat be slower than the Glide boat or are they about equally slow in the ocean? I work in Ventura and plan to try and paddle around a bit there as well.

What about rolling...is it easier to roll over a white water boat versus the cheap-o rec kayaks like the Glide? Because it seems to me that if it's hard to roll them, that would negate *some* of the risk. If I have a bilge pump with me, does that also negate some of the risk with a roll and water fill? (considering I am able to right the boat and re-enter?) Thanks y'all!!

  Utilitarian uses
  Posted by: Wayfarista on Jun-20-12 12:34 AM (EST)

I forgot to mention that I am trying to get the most utilitarian boat. I will also be paddling on a lake often as well (Lake Cachuma--near my house) and would like to invest in a boat that will be good for a variety of uses. E.g. I can take it up to Lake Tahoe and go at a reasonable pace/comfort or to a river, etc...whatever opportunities present themselves. If I wind up getting into the sea kayaking bit, I will consider investing in a better "Sea" boat. So...if I'm not going to die using this cheap rec kayak in the ocean, that may be good enough for me considering that it's ideal for lakes, etc...but, on a daily basis, I'm closer to ocean more often than not.

  Easier to roll over....
  Posted by: Celia on Jun-20-12 8:39 AM (EST)

Any boat can be quite easy to roll over - it is rolling back up again that is the challenge.

You have the cart before the horse. If you are contemplating ocean paddling or want to get better at WW, get into some rolling classes now. You will learn a lot about boats that you don't understand at the moment, and find why people are advising against a rec boat for on water self-rescue while you are learning.

  More info ....
  Posted by: seadart on Jun-20-12 2:14 PM (EST)

A older whitewater boat like a Necky Jive is extremely easy to roll, it's 24 inches wide, and bobs like a cork. The smaller cockpit and float bags, and foam pillars inside keep the water volume much less. It's not very fast to paddle, but fast enough if you are just out exploring. The boat has good rocker and is made for playing in rough water.

A boat like the Cobra Strike was designed for paddling on the ocean, and is safe for a beginner, because if you tip over, you climb back in and it takes all of 10 or 20 seconds. It will paddle faster than a whitewater boat, but not much faster for longer trips.

  second Seadart
  Posted by: Peter-CA on Jun-20-12 12:48 AM (EST)

-- Last Updated: Jun-20-12 11:56 AM EST --

I'll second what Seadart says - one of these other boats used may be a better option. The sea has a way of its own, and I believe it is best to be prepared.

Now to answer your question - all boats are made so they shouldn't sink. But not all boats are made so that you can get back in if they are flooded.

So, yes, you could possibly swim the boat back in and you won't lose it. But, the water temps at Ventura (couldn't find for Santa Barabara) vary from 55 to 67 during the year. These are all somewhat risky temperatures, and your body could start drawing blood back from the extremities to keep the core warm - which prevents you from swimming.

Optimal would be to also buy thermal protection (wet suit or similar). But, if you picked up a sit on top instead, you are more likely to be able to get back on (and out of the water). This is the safety you referred to (though, truthfully, they are just safer than rec boats, but not really all that safe - but that is a long story).

  Go Cheap
  Posted by: willi_h2o on Jun-20-12 12:34 AM (EST)

-- Last Updated: Jun-20-12 12:41 AM EST --

Until the rescue sends you a bill for $100,000

In 2011, costs - per flight hour - published
by the USCG (for search and rescue missions) were :
$11,061 for a H-65 helicopter,
$14,318 for a H-60 helicopter,
$17,886 for a HC-130J turboprop,
$15,354 for an HC-144A turboprop,
$12,556 for a HU-25D twin turbofan plane,
and $4,271 for a 47-foot motor lifeboat.
Cost per flight hour to operate
the VIP C-37A were $22,600

You might want to spend some money on kayak classes
before getting rescued for lack of knowledge

Station 46054 - West Santa Barbara Channel Buoy
Conditions As Of: 7:50PM, 06-20-2012
Wind Direction: NW (310�)
Wind Speed: 23.3 kts.
Gust Speed: 27.2 kts.
Wave Height: N/A ft.
Swell Period: N/A sec.
Air Temperature: 55.8�F
Water Temperature: 58.6�F

Yep, water is still cold

  When do you need a rescue?
  Posted by: Wayfarista on Jun-20-12 12:41 AM (EST)

I definitely hear ya...I am an avid climber and have partaken in rescues of "gumbies" who climb without the knowledge. But let me posit this scenario: if I'm never more than 30 yards from a nice sandy beach (which describes the whole coastline I would be paddling near...like downtown SB or Goleta, CA...no crazy rocky/cliff edges)...what situation do you imagine I will be needing a helicopter rescue? So, okay, worst case scenario I guess my boat will flip, fill with water and sink and I'll be out the $300, but swimming back to shore is do-able? Now, of course, you can make the case for "drastic wind changes" such as on-shore winds that would make a swim to shore hard. But, I plan to go out on the ocean only on the calmest of days and probably for no more than 2 hours (with lots of beach portages for exploring). And really, I mean CLOSE to shore...as close as possible with perhaps only a slight detour to check out a kelp forest if it's close enough. Do you still think that what I propose is super risky?? If you do, I'd like to know the specific risks so I can AVOID. And thank you for the info :)

  Skip the kayak - Go Swimming
  Posted by: willi_h2o on Jun-20-12 12:49 AM (EST)

-- Last Updated: Jun-20-12 12:56 AM EST --

Run your own experiment first.
Swim out 100 yards into the surf zone and back
- can you do it in 60 degree water ?

What would you wear ?

Familiarity with rip currents, ocean surf,
swimming all alone, unassisted, no flotation ?

Tide familiarity ?

http://www.surfline.com/surf-report/rincon-southern-california_4197/

  Please
  Posted by: jbd on Jun-20-12 7:56 AM (EST)

understand that my comment is made with the utmost respect for you and any one else.

Read your own statement about being an avid climber who has partaken in rescues of "gumbies". In this case, 9' rec boat for ocean use of any kind, you are being the "gumbie". You are getting all kinds of warnings not to do what you are thinking of doing. Please heed those warnings, its the most logical thing to do.

  when you are in over your head
  Posted by: LeeG on Jun-20-12 9:01 AM (EST)

sure conditions don't change rapidly there, sure you can see what conditions are when there isn't fog, etc. etc.

a paddle board would make more sense.

  If on the cheap...
  Posted by: ByronWalter on Jun-20-12 9:12 AM (EST)

...consider a SOT. It doesn't take much to cause one to flip over and, even close to shore, a kayak with a flooded cockpit is unmanageable in even modest surf. At least a SOT will not end up flooded and sloshing around in the surf.

The more butt time you can get in before your purchase, the better you will be able to make informed choices.

Sign up for some local classes where you can get wet with minimal risk. Keep us posted on your quest!

  no
  Posted by: LeeG on Jun-20-12 4:02 AM (EST)

-- Last Updated: Jun-20-12 8:55 AM EST --

get a sot.

ps. I learned to kayak in Santa Barbara and actually used exactly what you're talking about. For some bizarre reason I avoided the experience and instruction available at the time, and like you I went out in gentle conditions. Later I paddled a sea kayak but without adequate self-rescue skills. 6mo later I moved to the S.F. Bay area and took a multitude of classes.

Imagine I am you 23yrs later giving you advice. Don't be a gumbie.

  No no
  Posted by: Celia on Jun-20-12 7:49 AM (EST)

-- Last Updated: Jun-20-12 8:35 AM EST --

As above, once you capsize in the thing you can't likely do an on water self rescue, and get the water out of it, to be able to get on your way and to safety. Swimming to shore with a boat loaded with very dangerous amounts of water right behind you is not something to be taken lightly. Swimming in surf without that is not something to be taken lightly unless you have some time in that.

If capsizing and swimming is your approach to challenging water, I agree with the idea of at least getting a SOT.

Your idea of staying close to shore won't work if you find yourself alongside a beach with major waves. You will either have to be well out beyond the waves, which means you are far enough out to have a real challenge making it in safely or dealing with a capsize, or you are tumbling in surf nearer shore. Neither is where this boat should be.

  A roll is one self rescue tool
  Posted by: kayamedic on Jun-20-12 9:19 AM (EST)

and not the only one.. What does make self rescue possible is not having much water in the boat. That either entails use of float bags or sealed bulkheads in each end. Rec boats annoyingly have either one or no bulkheads.

Swamp..and the reasons for capsize are many including simply not paying attention on a beautiful day or looking overboard.. and you have a rec boat with one end filled with water and the other end looking at the sky.. Impossible for one to self rescue and incredibly hard even with a second boat. At least with minimal water to pump out its easier to get back in to the boat and the boat is more stable than filled with water.

I saw a whole bunch of such boats at WalMart the other day and they scared the crap out of me.

I used to take my rec boat out in March in Long Island Sound. I had a spray cover. Wave imploded that and filled the cockpit and the boat which promptly became unstable and I went out.. I was in waves and managed barely to get to shore. It was only about thirty feet.

Next day I went to buy a real sea kayak with double bulkheads. The rec boat was still used...on ponds and as a visitor boat.

  I have had the same question
  Posted by: bartc on Jun-20-12 9:47 AM (EST)

Since I do own an Emotion Glide and live on SF Bay. It's very fine for flatwater and smaller wave situations in the sloughs, but I don't know about the open Bay, much less the open ocean. I am going to test the Bay carefully this summer.

First, in defense of the Glide, all you need is a second air bag for the front (just buy the same one they supply for the back for $25) to get the flotation you need and to keep the hull from filling totally with water. Also, a good spray skirt will help keep you from filling. And eventually you'll need a good pump to get water out if those don't work with ANY boat. These are the same requirements you'd have for almost any other boat without hull chambers, including the Aleut and Inuit designs of skin on frame boats.

When I took lessons in Princeton Harbor (Half Moon Bay) I met skilled kayak surfers using all kinds of short WW and rec and small ocean kayaks, so it's possible. But they were highly skilled and not touring at all.

NO boat is worth a crap to you if you can't rescue yourself. And swimming 30 yards in cold ocean water and surf is a really dangerous idea. Those lessons will tell you what type of boat you do need for your conditions, and don't count on ideal conditions.

Once I took an ocean lesson in more protected water with a 14' smaller sit inside and learned self-rescue, I started to get my doubts about taking my Glide out on open seawater of any kind. The longer boats are made for the sea's vicissitudes, not just for speed.

The truly best bet is to first invest in at least one lesson on the water you plan to paddle in SB with a good instructor. That's a better bet than what you think you'll save on a boat without firsthand info.

This is advice I wish I'd heeded when I bought my boat. Though I love my Glide for what it's designed for, I ended up hungering for a "true" sea kayak for the real ocean. And everybody tells you this same advice for a reason.

  save me tax money
  Posted by: nermal on Jun-20-12 9:54 AM (EST)

And don't do it. Coast Guard rescues are expensive.

  Only if you get flotation
  Posted by: Kocho on Jun-20-12 10:05 AM (EST)

That is secured well. Unfortunately, it is hard to secure flotaion in the front, because these boats are so short and wide: it is very likely it will float out if the boat fills-up with water. Flotation in the rear is easier to secure - just put the float bag(s) in then inflate and they are likely to stay if you have a solid back rest to keep them in place (but if not, they could come out and that's no good).

But that said, these boats paddle OK as long as you are not in a rush. They are also rather stable, so they won't flip easy, unless you get into braking waves. So, if secured with flotation and a spray skirt to aviid filling-up in the first place, they are just as good as a longer boat, unless you need speed: you simply can't paddle these faster than about 4mph and sometimes you need to paddle against a tide current that might be faster than that - you sill be out of luck, unless in a longer faster boat and a strong paddler...

I paddled a very similar boat recently. It was actually a lot of fun in the small steep waves. It would surf nicely and body leans and stern rudders were very effective in keeping it where I wnated it to go. I could even paddle it in a racing position, with my knees high-up in the center with lots of body rotation, something I can't get in a more snug regular kayak.

I wanted to see what happens if that thing flips over. So, I rolled it once, which filled it up half-way. It still floated with me in, but lost most of its stability, was very heavy and slow, and even the slightest waves would wash over and inside (I had no spray skirt). I rolled it a second time and as I came-up, the thing sank under me. There is no way to empty it alone and reenter. It might not sink down entirely, but it would be almost as useless as not having it next to you. You can't pull it for long as it is very heavy so you will have to leave it behind.

To sum-up. Unless you get flotation properly secured, AND you practice re-entry self rescue in deep water successfully, you should only stay close to shore and in warm enough water to not die swimming. Regardless of the boat.

  CKF.org
  Posted by: Seadddict on Jun-20-12 10:46 AM (EST)

I suggest you reach out to the folks in California Kayak Friends club. They're very active in & around Santa Barbara. Nice people and a good source of knowledge and experience for you. Buddy up with them for a paddle of Ventura or Channel Islands harbors (much more suitable for a rec boat). if you want to paddle on the ocean, consider a SOT or real sea kayak.

Also, Jen Kleck of Aqua Adventures in San Diego (aqua-adventures.com) occasionally does instruction up there for that club. Or take a day to come down to SD for lessons. At this point, you don't know what you don't know.

  Will look up the club
  Posted by: Wayfarista on Jun-21-12 10:40 PM (EST)

Thanks for the suggestion, I will look that up!

  Flotation
  Posted by: bartc on Jun-20-12 3:48 PM (EST)

-- Last Updated: Jun-20-12 3:52 PM EST --

The bags for the Glide CAN be secured inside.

The stern bag that comes with it has a tether you tie inside. After much measurement and research I found that the same bag from Emotion can be used effectively in front of the footrests in the bow and it can also be secured inside. It won't pop out if done right. In the front you may need to deflate slightly to fit if you have long legs like me.

You're suggesting that it was a good test of a boat to try to roll it without a skirt? That makes no sense. Sure, what you expected to happen did happen, because you're right, without a skirt and more flotation that's exactly what will happen. Why would anyone be out on the open ocean in cold water and waves in a sit inside kayak without a skirt?

I'm not suggesting that this kayak is a good choice for open ocean touring. Just responding to some of the misconceptions of these rec type craft.

  A Good Test - yes
  Posted by: Kocho on Jun-20-12 5:29 PM (EST)

-- Last Updated: Jun-20-12 5:34 PM EST --

Of course it was a good test! I never rolled one of these, being 3 feet or so wide, and I confirmed to myself that they indeed roll quite easy. At least the one I had did, as I'm sure not all of them have a good place to brace your knees and some have obnoxiously obtrusive back rests etc.

Of course I expected it would sink without flotation - I was not testing that idea. It was fun to do and entertainment for the folks on shore. I thought it was worth mentioning here for some who don't know what happens when a boat gets partially or fully swamped.

I've actually never paddled a short rec kayak before, so this was a "test paddle" of sorts for me. I was pleasantly surprised that it actually paddled nicely and tracked well while being controllable and maneuverable. I'm used to WW and sea kayaks, so that was a new experience for me... I also pracitced towing another one of these boats with my first-time-paddler 8 year-old daughter in it, and that worked pretty well too and we both enjoyed it (I dragged her upwind, she paddled downwind on her own or with help from the tow line). And no, there was no danger in any of that as we were in warm water, in a protected area with a nice breeze towards a nice sandy beach, and near plenty of other boaters and beach goers. I guess you can call that a test for an assisted rescue by towing, if that's not too much against your idea of what a good test is -;)

  Then you did find out
  Posted by: bartc on Jun-20-12 9:41 PM (EST)

that these boats, at least the Glide, can be actually well designed. No, it's not fast. I can move it at 4 mph regularly, but in a wind or current it is definitely not the best. The wide and long cockpit makes entry and exit very easy. It does edge. Except for wind/current conditions when I was tired after a long paddle, I could usually keep up with the sea kayak friends in the sloughs, and they often joke that I keep them paddling hard to keep up with me.

So when I read people trashing the rec boats outright, I get defensive of this little craft.

But I have no illusions about its seaworthiness in the real ocean, believe me!

  Yes but really NO!
  Posted by: castoff on Jun-20-12 10:28 AM (EST)

-- Last Updated: Jun-20-12 10:45 AM EST --

I have done what you are asking about. I bought a zip up skirt for a cheap Pelican es100 that cost $180 new. I live on the east coast and this boat was for fishing on farm ponds, but I took it to the coast for a week to play in the surf. However the water temps on the Isle of Palms were in the 80s and the beach was shallow running out 100 yards or more before being over your head. The waves ran from about 2 to 5 feet. It was lots of fun but the large cockpit and cheap skirt would allow a wave that hit on deck to implode and fill the boat with water. I had added enough floatation to keep the flooded kayak from sinking. I could handle the boat well enough, but it had to be taken to shore to empty when flooded. I had even learned to cowboy reentry in deep flat water, but this wasn�t possible in the surf. The week on the coast convinced me I wanted to do more, but that the boat was just inadequate for the purpose

My experience is I grew up on the water in Florida. I have done a fair amount of free diving in the ocean. I have worked on boats on both fresh and salt water doing fisheries work. I have many years of canoeing mostly rivers and some white water, and I have even surfed a canoe on the Atlantic coast. The summation of what I am saying is yes it can be done, but you will soon find that it is far from ideal, and in deep cold water may be life threatening. Be aware that you will need immersion protection (wet suit or dry suit) on the pacific and Tahoe.

If cost is a factor watch craigslist for a used boat. I have recently seen both a Necky chatum and CD squall with paddles selling for $400 each within 100 miles of where I live. Both are full size plastic sea kayaks. Yes this is a rare deal as most boats like this will run used for about $600-$800, but I see 1 or 2 such deals like this every summer. Last summer I saw a deal for $450 that had the paddle, skirt, pfd, pump, and paddle float thrown in with the sea kayak. I would have bought it for a loaner but I was a day late. You can check the reviews on this site to give you an idea of most makes and models you find for sale that interest you.

So if you go this route you have to be vigilant and ready to act. I went this route and bought a fiberglass North Shore buccaneer with paddle for $600 and Shearwater merganser stitch and glue kit for $400 that I built last winter. I am very happy with both boats, and have had them surfing and touring the coast. In fact my wife and I just got back from paddling the Suwannee River in FL with these boats about a week ago.

So listen to the people here and their advice. I believe you will be happy that you did. There is more than one way to skin this cat rather than what you are suggesting.

  What about crossover kayaks for her?
  Posted by: ShadyClip on Jun-20-12 11:30 AM (EST)

What about her using a crossover kayak, such as the Dagger Approach or Axis, LiquidLogic Remix XP, Jackson Rogue, or Pyranha Fusion? She seems to want something small, sit in and wants to do both shore and lakes, without investing in multiple boats. People do use these boats to play in surf and rock-gardens. I like this class for the type of kayaking I do around home but never have used them on the ocean -- too much trouble to cart them to the east coast vs just going with an outfitter when I get there.

While these boats are still rec boats they have smaller cockpits, skegs, and better outfitting then the class she is looking at. Granted they aren't cheap boats.

Sure they aren't speedy boats but with the addition of floats and good skirt would she be safer then what she is looking at, assuming she does stay close to shore and doesn't do anything foolish?

  As above...
  Posted by: Celia on Jun-20-12 1:44 PM (EST)

Once you have waves of any scale staying close to shore is out unless someone already knows how to surf. Most of the crossovers are still pretty bad for an on water self rescue, especially if talking water temps in the 50's.

  invest your money wisely
  Posted by: willowleaf on Jun-20-12 2:30 PM (EST)

For the $400 you would blow on the Glide, you should be easily able to find a decent used rotomold sea or touring kayak that would be way more comfortable, safe and enjoyable in big water and for most other types of paddling you are likely to do. I've used my 15' x 22" touring kayak for everything from coastal surfing to moderate Class II whitewater. And I have bought 3 very nice quality used touring kayaks in that size range for $400 or less in the past 10 years, a Dagger Magellan, a Perception Chinook and a Perception Scimitar, all with sealed bulkheads, hatches, full deck rigging, rudders and keyhole cockpits that will take a sprayskirt. Considering I live nowhere near the ocean that suggests you should have an even wider selection to choose from. These are just a few current CL ads for kayaks in Santa Barbara, all near or under your budget:

http://santabarbara.craigslist.org/spo/3083771260.html

http://santabarbara.craigslist.org/spo/3036451685.html

http://santabarbara.craigslist.org/boa/3088228351.html

http://santabarbara.craigslist.org/boa/3041791535.html

http://santabarbara.craigslist.org/spo/3079592797.html

  Good find
  Posted by: carldelo on Jun-20-12 4:11 PM (EST)

The OP should be all over that first listing for a 14' Necky with paddle, skirt and pfd for $250. A great way to get started and much better than her original plan.

  Pass on the Tico ...
  Posted by: seadart on Jun-20-12 4:20 PM (EST)

not a beginners boat, and if I remember right the cockpit is really tight, very tough to wet exit. Also the boat is ancient.

  Saw it, decided I was not ready!
  Posted by: Wayfarista on Jun-21-12 10:39 PM (EST)

Yes, I saw that necky on craigs and for the price it was QUITE tempting...but after reading all the posts here I decided that there is too much danger in dealing with a boat you don't really know a lot about. Yep...went with the little SOT's and I think that's a great step toward getting involved with kayaking. (That and taking classes which I plan to do now!)

  Yes, if you are careful
  Posted by: Glenn_MacGrady on Jun-20-12 4:55 PM (EST)

My first suggestion is to ask the local outfitter there in Santa Barbara what kind of kayaks they rent to novices. I suspect SOTs.

A SOT is clearly the safest and most easy to self-rescue. They self-drain and most people can probably climb back on them. Inexpensive. Relatively heavy.

That leaves SINKs and Recs. Both should be bagged or bulkheaded so they float after capsize and so they will have less water to bail or pump out. Recs are very cheap and can be reasonably lightweight. SINKs can be very lightweight but only at high expense.

Is a SINK more safe or self-rescuable than a Rec? Not once you are upside down, unless you can roll. If you can't roll, you will have to re-enter/pump in either craft ... or swim. The wider Rec may even be less prone to tipping in the hands of a novice. Of course, a SINK with a strong spray skirt will be less likely to take waves into the cockpit than a non-skirted Rec, but I'm assuming your care will keep you from paddling in such wave conditions.

In sum, all the safety and instructional advice you have been getting is valid, but to answer your specific question I think it is a reasonable paddling risk to paddle a securely bagged Rec kayak in calm salt or fresh waters. Just be very attuned to the weather and sea condition reports, stay within your personal swimming distance to shore -- which is a function of water temperature, how you are dressed, your age, and your swimming ability -- and hie thee swiftly to shore if wind or waves get scary.

I paddled seakayaks without a reliable roll for eight years like this and never had a problem. I don't think it would have been any different if I had been in a Rec, other than I would have been slower and a lot of club paddlers wouldn't have let me paddle with them. It's the same care with which I have paddled open canoe for more than 50 years, and I haven't tried (or probably been able) to self-rescue in an open canoe for the past 20 years of increasing decrepitude.

By paddling with such defensive care you are limiting the conditions in which you can paddle, but you at least are paddling, which is better than typing. If you want to be able to paddle more challenging conditions with confidence, take lessons, learn how to roll, and you will almost inevitably end up in a different boat than your starter boat.

  Funny who it works out.
  Posted by: FrankNC on Jun-20-12 10:01 PM (EST)

You are not the first climber who has tried kayaking in the sea. I really hope it works out, but I wonder if you will listen to the advice you are being given here.

I highly recommend a sit on top if you are going into the ocean from the beach without lessons and on your own. Also you should get float bags for any kayak you take in the surf. Furthermore you should really get a surf read life vest and a helmet.

Imagine this: you launch in benign conditions, paddle along for an hour or two. While your were out a swell arrived from a distant shore. When you try to land through the breaking swell, you are hammered. And I mean just like a hammer!

You will have no warning because the swell grew quietly and un-noticeably while you were paddling in the green room. You will not realize you are in trouble until you are already in the impact zone.

Join a club, get lessons, and get appropriate gear. If you want to do it at the least gear cost, get a sit on top. even with the sit on top, lessons,a helmet , thigh straps and a paddle leash would help a lot.

  You meant SOT, right?
  Posted by: Celia on Jun-22-12 6:07 AM (EST)

Just scanned your post and, for the sake of clarity, wanted to confirm that where you typed SINK you really meant SOT... yes?

  THANK YOU ALL!!!!
  Posted by: Wayfarista on Jun-21-12 10:42 PM (EST)

Hi!! GREAT NEWS!!!!!

Sorry for delay in post, I was busy yesterday wrangling kayaks from craigslist (didn't get home til late after picking one up!). I wound up with two SOT Ocean Kayaks...the Mysto, for my boyfriend, and I scored a Venus for me (the female version of the Mysto). I was very tempted by the 14' Necky I saw for $250, but I wound up sticking with the little sit on tops and will wait to take lessons before getting anything bigger (as was stated how much instruction it takes for self rescue, etc).

I hope no one thought I was trying to counter all the advice before, I was just trying to illicit more information. And delve into the real details (like go beyond the "no" to the "why"). I hope that this thread helps someone out who had the same bonehead idea I had to get the PROPER information! I am so thankful for this site and all the great community members...if only the people at REI trying to sell me the rec kayak actually knew this info. I am temped to print this thread up and bring in to them so they do not sell one of the closed deck, cheap rec kayaks to an unsuspecting person.

Luckily, I never had the kayak I mentioned (was only thinking about it). I was just trying to get all the info possible before making a decision.

Also, I will definitely get a paddle leash and the proper clothing, though now I am rethinking heading out along the coast until I have taken at least a few classes and research clothing.

Soooo.....A BIG thank you to EVERYONE!!

  Whoah!
  Posted by: bartc on Jun-22-12 9:25 AM (EST)

I agree with you, that REI and any store that sells boats should be really clear about the proper use and limits of what they're selling. Sorry, but that isn't how retail works, unfortunately. You can buy those same kayaks on the web, in big box stores, or even sports stores that should know better, without being properly informed at all - often without even speaking to a human being.

However, be careful about throwing around ideas like "cheap rec kayaks".

Yes, they are cheaper, which doesn't translate into crap, just less expensive than larger ocean boats. Yes, they are recreational class kayaks, which means that they do get people started out on the water, who may never have ventured into an expensive 18' boat. Both of those are good things.

There's nothing wrong with many of these craft used for their intended ends by people who are properly equipped and have enough experience.

In your case the info you sought - and I'm glad you did - was related to your inexperience and eagerness, not necessarily to the boat itself.

Do take those lessons. The sea is very unforgiving!

  rec boats usage
  Posted by: Peter-CA on Jun-22-12 1:09 PM (EST)

There was an article in California Kayaker Magazine on selecting a rec boat (can be read online for free at http://content.yudu.com/Library/A1sh59/CaliforniaKayakerMag/resources/22.htm.

Key quote from that article:
"Here's the deal: recreational kayaks are for general recreation. They're not meant for surfing Bolinas. They're not meant for making the Inside Passage to Alaska. They're designed for even the first time kayaker to sit flat on the water comfortably on relatively pleasant days. Rec boats are wide and stable. Most people don't wear spray skirts. A lot of people bring their dog. As a result, the vast majority of these kayaks have the very bare minimum of emergency flotation, which makes it difficult at best to get the water out of a swamped boat. A flooded boat won't sink, but it also won't float high enough to get back in. Manufacturers build boats like this for three reasons: keep the price low, keep the weight down, and also because the chances are very small that you would ever tip the boat over (if you paddle in the conditions the boat was built for). "

  Read it there and agree.
  Posted by: bartc on Jun-22-12 5:21 PM (EST)

The fault is not with the boat, but with the manufacturer for not including fore and aft flotation (to save money) and/or with the user for believing that it can be used in severe conditions without training no less!

I bought my glide for $325 on sale, cheap enough to determine if I wanted to pursue this sport. It got me back out on the water, and that's what I needed to find that kayaking is a hobby worth pursuing and that I would keep it up.

It came with an aft float bag that's well made, and many don't. After reading and lessons, I realized I needed a fore float bag and found that it only cost $25 more for me to buy another one from Emotion that fit almost perfectly.

In the literature they don't in any way claim that this is a seagoing vessel that I can see. It's a better designed rec boat than most I've seen and evaluated, though. All their claims for this design and the quality of its manufacture are correct, IMO. And that's the way I use it with pleasure.

  REI? stop the presses!
  Posted by: slushpaddler on Jun-22-12 11:13 AM (EST)

Someone told me that REI gives impeccable user and site-specific advice, and that their sales approach is based on altruism!

  hit and miss
  Posted by: Peter-CA on Jun-22-12 1:58 PM (EST)

REI is a step above the bog box stores, in that some of the employees there do really know their stuff. Many of them are outdoor enthusiasts.

But it can be hit or miss, as not all are up on the sport you are interested in. More likely to find consistent info for a local kayak shop (then again, not all of those are perfect either).

  Great joke!
  Posted by: rnsparky on Jun-22-12 11:05 AM (EST)

I can't believe how many people thought you were serious!

Oh wait..... you were serious?

  It's sad that the ACA doesn't do more
  Posted by: willi_h2o on Jun-22-12 1:20 PM (EST)

-- Last Updated: Jun-22-12 1:21 PM EST --

Many beginning paddlers don't even know the
ACA exists , let alone trains paddlers in USA.

http://www.americancanoe.org/

If retailers merely gave potential customers
info from the ACA on where to get instruction
the number of water related deaths would drop.

The USA is surrounded on 3 sides by ocean, and
has countless creeks, streams, rivers and lakes.

Paddling is a LEARNED skill, just like golf.
Millions hack at it and think they know.
A lifetime is spent learning about nature.
Putting a tush in a cockpit doesn't make that
person a kayaker/canoeist anymore than putting
a tush in airplane makes that person a pilot.

  I disagree
  Posted by: jbd on Jun-23-12 9:43 AM (EST)

that water deaths would decrease appreciably if people knew about ACA courses or if people even took some of the courses. I learned to fly and for the most part the instruction was not good quality. I learned to scuba dive and the majority of what I got was poor instruction. I became a scuba instructor and what I found is that most people don't want to spend the time or the money for quality training.

Reality seems to be that even with training or certification people will still do stupid things that lead to injury or death for someone.

  Don't know the boat, but..
  Posted by: rjd9999 on Jun-22-12 10:03 PM (EST)

I've paddled a boat like that with James when we were looking for an SOT double so that I could take him out. We tried a few boats and the retailer suggested, since the next boat we wanted to try was being used, that we take out an open cockpit boat. I was dubious, but decided to give it a shot into the 2-3 foot surf coming in.

It was bad. The surf was continuous (for those who know the SF Bay, Coyote Point had those typical rollers you get on moderately windy conditions). The first wave simply plowed over the boat and nearly filled the boat. The next wave was certain to flood it, so I did what I could to turn the boat and surf back in. Being, at this point, a sinking barge, the dang thing turned almost as well as the Exxon Valdez. I gave it up as a loss, bailed out with the kid, and hauled the kid and POS to shore.

So, I don't recommend going out in potential surf in a boat that isn't either closed cockpit or a SOT that is designed to self-drain.

Rick

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	Tours Posted by: carldelo on Jun-19-12 11:48 PM (EST)
	I think it would make a great deal of sense for you to go on some tours with outfitters in your area. They will know the details of the local paddling, be able to recommend appropriate and safe equipment, reasonable solo destinations, etc. I'm a paddling loner myself, and almost always go alone. But the first year I rented to learn about equipment and get some paddling pointers and safety skills. The second and third year I had my own equipment, but still went on some guided tours and joined a local paddling club for group paddles. I've left that behind, mostly, but in the process learned what I'm comfortable doing on my own, and know how to use the equipment I have. And you can't underestimate the value of having a good, efficient forward stroke. I had a couple of good teachers early on, and it was a big help.

	Have you ever used rec kayak on ocean? Posted by: Wayfarista on Jun-19-12 11:54 PM (EST)
	Thank you for the response, that's definitely a good idea to take a local tour. I have a friend who teaches, but she is up north and I plan to learn from her soon (though she couldn't recommend for or against the rec yak in the ocean). I'm sure any outfitter is going to recommend a sea kayak for the sea (which right now I am not willing to pay for). What boats have you used on the ocean and what was your experience with them?

	Not a good choice. Posted by: seadart on Jun-20-12 12:15 AM (EST)
	-- Last Updated: Jun-20-12 12:16 AM EST -- The problem is the ocean does not cooperate with the best laid plans, if you paddle on the open coast you will discover winds and rogue set waves can change what you thought was an easy safe day. The big problem with boats like the glide is the big cockpit fills with water and it is a big hassle getting it back to shore, in bad conditions more than a big hassle, just not worth it. I have several kayaks SOTs and SINKS and waveskis and I surf and paddle the coastline in San Diego often, and come up to Ventura and Rincon to surf every fall. One of my favorite boats for doing what you want to do is an 8'2" necky jive whitewater kayak, very sea worthy and you can surf it, play in rock gardens, it just doesn't go very fast. My other favorite choice is a 9'6" Cobra Strike Sit on Top, I actually do most of my coastal paddles in that boat, just cruising the rocks and caves and looking for places to surf. You can usually find both of these boats used on Craigslist for $300 -350.

	Boat suggestions Posted by: Wayfarista on Jun-20-12 12:30 AM (EST)
	Wow, that is exactly the advice I've been looking for, thank you! I thrive on details and explanations so the tip about the cockpit size is very helpful. I hope you don't mind me picking your brain a little bit more... I just looked at the Necky Jive online...is it more sea worthy because of a smaller cockpit? Or what about it makes it better for the sea versus the clunkier rec kayaks? I see the boat shape has more rocker as well (which is what I imagine helps with surfing it). Will a white water boat be slower than the Glide boat or are they about equally slow in the ocean? I work in Ventura and plan to try and paddle around a bit there as well. What about rolling...is it easier to roll over a white water boat versus the cheap-o rec kayaks like the Glide? Because it seems to me that if it's hard to roll them, that would negate some of the risk. If I have a bilge pump with me, does that also negate some of the risk with a roll and water fill? (considering I am able to right the boat and re-enter?) Thanks y'all!!

	Utilitarian uses Posted by: Wayfarista on Jun-20-12 12:34 AM (EST)
	I forgot to mention that I am trying to get the most utilitarian boat. I will also be paddling on a lake often as well (Lake Cachuma--near my house) and would like to invest in a boat that will be good for a variety of uses. E.g. I can take it up to Lake Tahoe and go at a reasonable pace/comfort or to a river, etc...whatever opportunities present themselves. If I wind up getting into the sea kayaking bit, I will consider investing in a better "Sea" boat. So...if I'm not going to die using this cheap rec kayak in the ocean, that may be good enough for me considering that it's ideal for lakes, etc...but, on a daily basis, I'm closer to ocean more often than not.

	Easier to roll over.... Posted by: Celia on Jun-20-12 8:39 AM (EST)
	Any boat can be quite easy to roll over - it is rolling back up again that is the challenge. You have the cart before the horse. If you are contemplating ocean paddling or want to get better at WW, get into some rolling classes now. You will learn a lot about boats that you don't understand at the moment, and find why people are advising against a rec boat for on water self-rescue while you are learning.

	More info .... Posted by: seadart on Jun-20-12 2:14 PM (EST)
	A older whitewater boat like a Necky Jive is extremely easy to roll, it's 24 inches wide, and bobs like a cork. The smaller cockpit and float bags, and foam pillars inside keep the water volume much less. It's not very fast to paddle, but fast enough if you are just out exploring. The boat has good rocker and is made for playing in rough water. A boat like the Cobra Strike was designed for paddling on the ocean, and is safe for a beginner, because if you tip over, you climb back in and it takes all of 10 or 20 seconds. It will paddle faster than a whitewater boat, but not much faster for longer trips.

	second Seadart Posted by: Peter-CA on Jun-20-12 12:48 AM (EST)
	-- Last Updated: Jun-20-12 11:56 AM EST -- I'll second what Seadart says - one of these other boats used may be a better option. The sea has a way of its own, and I believe it is best to be prepared. Now to answer your question - all boats are made so they shouldn't sink. But not all boats are made so that you can get back in if they are flooded. So, yes, you could possibly swim the boat back in and you won't lose it. But, the water temps at Ventura (couldn't find for Santa Barabara) vary from 55 to 67 during the year. These are all somewhat risky temperatures, and your body could start drawing blood back from the extremities to keep the core warm - which prevents you from swimming. Optimal would be to also buy thermal protection (wet suit or similar). But, if you picked up a sit on top instead, you are more likely to be able to get back on (and out of the water). This is the safety you referred to (though, truthfully, they are just safer than rec boats, but not really all that safe - but that is a long story).

	Go Cheap Posted by: willi_h2o on Jun-20-12 12:34 AM (EST)
	-- Last Updated: Jun-20-12 12:41 AM EST -- Until the rescue sends you a bill for $100,000 In 2011, costs - per flight hour - published by the USCG (for search and rescue missions) were : $11,061 for a H-65 helicopter, $14,318 for a H-60 helicopter, $17,886 for a HC-130J turboprop, $15,354 for an HC-144A turboprop, $12,556 for a HU-25D twin turbofan plane, and $4,271 for a 47-foot motor lifeboat. Cost per flight hour to operate the VIP C-37A were $22,600 You might want to spend some money on kayak classes before getting rescued for lack of knowledge Station 46054 - West Santa Barbara Channel Buoy Conditions As Of: 7:50PM, 06-20-2012 Wind Direction: NW (310�) Wind Speed: 23.3 kts. Gust Speed: 27.2 kts. Wave Height: N/A ft. Swell Period: N/A sec. Air Temperature: 55.8�F Water Temperature: 58.6�F Yep, water is still cold

	When do you need a rescue? Posted by: Wayfarista on Jun-20-12 12:41 AM (EST)
	I definitely hear ya...I am an avid climber and have partaken in rescues of "gumbies" who climb without the knowledge. But let me posit this scenario: if I'm never more than 30 yards from a nice sandy beach (which describes the whole coastline I would be paddling near...like downtown SB or Goleta, CA...no crazy rocky/cliff edges)...what situation do you imagine I will be needing a helicopter rescue? So, okay, worst case scenario I guess my boat will flip, fill with water and sink and I'll be out the $300, but swimming back to shore is do-able? Now, of course, you can make the case for "drastic wind changes" such as on-shore winds that would make a swim to shore hard. But, I plan to go out on the ocean only on the calmest of days and probably for no more than 2 hours (with lots of beach portages for exploring). And really, I mean CLOSE to shore...as close as possible with perhaps only a slight detour to check out a kelp forest if it's close enough. Do you still think that what I propose is super risky?? If you do, I'd like to know the specific risks so I can AVOID. And thank you for the info :)

	Skip the kayak - Go Swimming Posted by: willi_h2o on Jun-20-12 12:49 AM (EST)
	-- Last Updated: Jun-20-12 12:56 AM EST -- Run your own experiment first. Swim out 100 yards into the surf zone and back - can you do it in 60 degree water ? What would you wear ? Familiarity with rip currents, ocean surf, swimming all alone, unassisted, no flotation ? Tide familiarity ? http://www.surfline.com/surf-report/rincon-southern-california_4197/

	Please Posted by: jbd on Jun-20-12 7:56 AM (EST)
	understand that my comment is made with the utmost respect for you and any one else. Read your own statement about being an avid climber who has partaken in rescues of "gumbies". In this case, 9' rec boat for ocean use of any kind, you are being the "gumbie". You are getting all kinds of warnings not to do what you are thinking of doing. Please heed those warnings, its the most logical thing to do.

	when you are in over your head Posted by: LeeG on Jun-20-12 9:01 AM (EST)
	sure conditions don't change rapidly there, sure you can see what conditions are when there isn't fog, etc. etc. a paddle board would make more sense.

	If on the cheap... Posted by: ByronWalter on Jun-20-12 9:12 AM (EST)
	...consider a SOT. It doesn't take much to cause one to flip over and, even close to shore, a kayak with a flooded cockpit is unmanageable in even modest surf. At least a SOT will not end up flooded and sloshing around in the surf. The more butt time you can get in before your purchase, the better you will be able to make informed choices. Sign up for some local classes where you can get wet with minimal risk. Keep us posted on your quest!

	no Posted by: LeeG on Jun-20-12 4:02 AM (EST)
	-- Last Updated: Jun-20-12 8:55 AM EST -- get a sot. ps. I learned to kayak in Santa Barbara and actually used exactly what you're talking about. For some bizarre reason I avoided the experience and instruction available at the time, and like you I went out in gentle conditions. Later I paddled a sea kayak but without adequate self-rescue skills. 6mo later I moved to the S.F. Bay area and took a multitude of classes. Imagine I am you 23yrs later giving you advice. Don't be a gumbie.

	No no Posted by: Celia on Jun-20-12 7:49 AM (EST)
	-- Last Updated: Jun-20-12 8:35 AM EST -- As above, once you capsize in the thing you can't likely do an on water self rescue, and get the water out of it, to be able to get on your way and to safety. Swimming to shore with a boat loaded with very dangerous amounts of water right behind you is not something to be taken lightly. Swimming in surf without that is not something to be taken lightly unless you have some time in that. If capsizing and swimming is your approach to challenging water, I agree with the idea of at least getting a SOT. Your idea of staying close to shore won't work if you find yourself alongside a beach with major waves. You will either have to be well out beyond the waves, which means you are far enough out to have a real challenge making it in safely or dealing with a capsize, or you are tumbling in surf nearer shore. Neither is where this boat should be.

	A roll is one self rescue tool Posted by: kayamedic on Jun-20-12 9:19 AM (EST)
	and not the only one.. What does make self rescue possible is not having much water in the boat. That either entails use of float bags or sealed bulkheads in each end. Rec boats annoyingly have either one or no bulkheads. Swamp..and the reasons for capsize are many including simply not paying attention on a beautiful day or looking overboard.. and you have a rec boat with one end filled with water and the other end looking at the sky.. Impossible for one to self rescue and incredibly hard even with a second boat. At least with minimal water to pump out its easier to get back in to the boat and the boat is more stable than filled with water. I saw a whole bunch of such boats at WalMart the other day and they scared the crap out of me. I used to take my rec boat out in March in Long Island Sound. I had a spray cover. Wave imploded that and filled the cockpit and the boat which promptly became unstable and I went out.. I was in waves and managed barely to get to shore. It was only about thirty feet. Next day I went to buy a real sea kayak with double bulkheads. The rec boat was still used...on ponds and as a visitor boat.

	I have had the same question Posted by: bartc on Jun-20-12 9:47 AM (EST)
	Since I do own an Emotion Glide and live on SF Bay. It's very fine for flatwater and smaller wave situations in the sloughs, but I don't know about the open Bay, much less the open ocean. I am going to test the Bay carefully this summer. First, in defense of the Glide, all you need is a second air bag for the front (just buy the same one they supply for the back for $25) to get the flotation you need and to keep the hull from filling totally with water. Also, a good spray skirt will help keep you from filling. And eventually you'll need a good pump to get water out if those don't work with ANY boat. These are the same requirements you'd have for almost any other boat without hull chambers, including the Aleut and Inuit designs of skin on frame boats. When I took lessons in Princeton Harbor (Half Moon Bay) I met skilled kayak surfers using all kinds of short WW and rec and small ocean kayaks, so it's possible. But they were highly skilled and not touring at all. NO boat is worth a crap to you if you can't rescue yourself. And swimming 30 yards in cold ocean water and surf is a really dangerous idea. Those lessons will tell you what type of boat you do need for your conditions, and don't count on ideal conditions. Once I took an ocean lesson in more protected water with a 14' smaller sit inside and learned self-rescue, I started to get my doubts about taking my Glide out on open seawater of any kind. The longer boats are made for the sea's vicissitudes, not just for speed. The truly best bet is to first invest in at least one lesson on the water you plan to paddle in SB with a good instructor. That's a better bet than what you think you'll save on a boat without firsthand info. This is advice I wish I'd heeded when I bought my boat. Though I love my Glide for what it's designed for, I ended up hungering for a "true" sea kayak for the real ocean. And everybody tells you this same advice for a reason.

	save me tax money Posted by: nermal on Jun-20-12 9:54 AM (EST)
	And don't do it. Coast Guard rescues are expensive.

	Only if you get flotation Posted by: Kocho on Jun-20-12 10:05 AM (EST)
	That is secured well. Unfortunately, it is hard to secure flotaion in the front, because these boats are so short and wide: it is very likely it will float out if the boat fills-up with water. Flotation in the rear is easier to secure - just put the float bag(s) in then inflate and they are likely to stay if you have a solid back rest to keep them in place (but if not, they could come out and that's no good). But that said, these boats paddle OK as long as you are not in a rush. They are also rather stable, so they won't flip easy, unless you get into braking waves. So, if secured with flotation and a spray skirt to aviid filling-up in the first place, they are just as good as a longer boat, unless you need speed: you simply can't paddle these faster than about 4mph and sometimes you need to paddle against a tide current that might be faster than that - you sill be out of luck, unless in a longer faster boat and a strong paddler... I paddled a very similar boat recently. It was actually a lot of fun in the small steep waves. It would surf nicely and body leans and stern rudders were very effective in keeping it where I wnated it to go. I could even paddle it in a racing position, with my knees high-up in the center with lots of body rotation, something I can't get in a more snug regular kayak. I wanted to see what happens if that thing flips over. So, I rolled it once, which filled it up half-way. It still floated with me in, but lost most of its stability, was very heavy and slow, and even the slightest waves would wash over and inside (I had no spray skirt). I rolled it a second time and as I came-up, the thing sank under me. There is no way to empty it alone and reenter. It might not sink down entirely, but it would be almost as useless as not having it next to you. You can't pull it for long as it is very heavy so you will have to leave it behind. To sum-up. Unless you get flotation properly secured, AND you practice re-entry self rescue in deep water successfully, you should only stay close to shore and in warm enough water to not die swimming. Regardless of the boat.

	CKF.org Posted by: Seadddict on Jun-20-12 10:46 AM (EST)
	I suggest you reach out to the folks in California Kayak Friends club. They're very active in & around Santa Barbara. Nice people and a good source of knowledge and experience for you. Buddy up with them for a paddle of Ventura or Channel Islands harbors (much more suitable for a rec boat). if you want to paddle on the ocean, consider a SOT or real sea kayak. Also, Jen Kleck of Aqua Adventures in San Diego (aqua-adventures.com) occasionally does instruction up there for that club. Or take a day to come down to SD for lessons. At this point, you don't know what you don't know.

	Will look up the club Posted by: Wayfarista on Jun-21-12 10:40 PM (EST)
	Thanks for the suggestion, I will look that up!

	Flotation Posted by: bartc on Jun-20-12 3:48 PM (EST)
	-- Last Updated: Jun-20-12 3:52 PM EST -- The bags for the Glide CAN be secured inside. The stern bag that comes with it has a tether you tie inside. After much measurement and research I found that the same bag from Emotion can be used effectively in front of the footrests in the bow and it can also be secured inside. It won't pop out if done right. In the front you may need to deflate slightly to fit if you have long legs like me. You're suggesting that it was a good test of a boat to try to roll it without a skirt? That makes no sense. Sure, what you expected to happen did happen, because you're right, without a skirt and more flotation that's exactly what will happen. Why would anyone be out on the open ocean in cold water and waves in a sit inside kayak without a skirt? I'm not suggesting that this kayak is a good choice for open ocean touring. Just responding to some of the misconceptions of these rec type craft.

	A Good Test - yes Posted by: Kocho on Jun-20-12 5:29 PM (EST)
	-- Last Updated: Jun-20-12 5:34 PM EST -- Of course it was a good test! I never rolled one of these, being 3 feet or so wide, and I confirmed to myself that they indeed roll quite easy. At least the one I had did, as I'm sure not all of them have a good place to brace your knees and some have obnoxiously obtrusive back rests etc. Of course I expected it would sink without flotation - I was not testing that idea. It was fun to do and entertainment for the folks on shore. I thought it was worth mentioning here for some who don't know what happens when a boat gets partially or fully swamped. I've actually never paddled a short rec kayak before, so this was a "test paddle" of sorts for me. I was pleasantly surprised that it actually paddled nicely and tracked well while being controllable and maneuverable. I'm used to WW and sea kayaks, so that was a new experience for me... I also pracitced towing another one of these boats with my first-time-paddler 8 year-old daughter in it, and that worked pretty well too and we both enjoyed it (I dragged her upwind, she paddled downwind on her own or with help from the tow line). And no, there was no danger in any of that as we were in warm water, in a protected area with a nice breeze towards a nice sandy beach, and near plenty of other boaters and beach goers. I guess you can call that a test for an assisted rescue by towing, if that's not too much against your idea of what a good test is -;)

	Then you did find out Posted by: bartc on Jun-20-12 9:41 PM (EST)
	that these boats, at least the Glide, can be actually well designed. No, it's not fast. I can move it at 4 mph regularly, but in a wind or current it is definitely not the best. The wide and long cockpit makes entry and exit very easy. It does edge. Except for wind/current conditions when I was tired after a long paddle, I could usually keep up with the sea kayak friends in the sloughs, and they often joke that I keep them paddling hard to keep up with me. So when I read people trashing the rec boats outright, I get defensive of this little craft. But I have no illusions about its seaworthiness in the real ocean, believe me!

	Yes but really NO! Posted by: castoff on Jun-20-12 10:28 AM (EST)
	-- Last Updated: Jun-20-12 10:45 AM EST -- I have done what you are asking about. I bought a zip up skirt for a cheap Pelican es100 that cost $180 new. I live on the east coast and this boat was for fishing on farm ponds, but I took it to the coast for a week to play in the surf. However the water temps on the Isle of Palms were in the 80s and the beach was shallow running out 100 yards or more before being over your head. The waves ran from about 2 to 5 feet. It was lots of fun but the large cockpit and cheap skirt would allow a wave that hit on deck to implode and fill the boat with water. I had added enough floatation to keep the flooded kayak from sinking. I could handle the boat well enough, but it had to be taken to shore to empty when flooded. I had even learned to cowboy reentry in deep flat water, but this wasn�t possible in the surf. The week on the coast convinced me I wanted to do more, but that the boat was just inadequate for the purpose My experience is I grew up on the water in Florida. I have done a fair amount of free diving in the ocean. I have worked on boats on both fresh and salt water doing fisheries work. I have many years of canoeing mostly rivers and some white water, and I have even surfed a canoe on the Atlantic coast. The summation of what I am saying is yes it can be done, but you will soon find that it is far from ideal, and in deep cold water may be life threatening. Be aware that you will need immersion protection (wet suit or dry suit) on the pacific and Tahoe. If cost is a factor watch craigslist for a used boat. I have recently seen both a Necky chatum and CD squall with paddles selling for $400 each within 100 miles of where I live. Both are full size plastic sea kayaks. Yes this is a rare deal as most boats like this will run used for about $600-$800, but I see 1 or 2 such deals like this every summer. Last summer I saw a deal for $450 that had the paddle, skirt, pfd, pump, and paddle float thrown in with the sea kayak. I would have bought it for a loaner but I was a day late. You can check the reviews on this site to give you an idea of most makes and models you find for sale that interest you. So if you go this route you have to be vigilant and ready to act. I went this route and bought a fiberglass North Shore buccaneer with paddle for $600 and Shearwater merganser stitch and glue kit for $400 that I built last winter. I am very happy with both boats, and have had them surfing and touring the coast. In fact my wife and I just got back from paddling the Suwannee River in FL with these boats about a week ago. So listen to the people here and their advice. I believe you will be happy that you did. There is more than one way to skin this cat rather than what you are suggesting.

	What about crossover kayaks for her? Posted by: ShadyClip on Jun-20-12 11:30 AM (EST)
	What about her using a crossover kayak, such as the Dagger Approach or Axis, LiquidLogic Remix XP, Jackson Rogue, or Pyranha Fusion? She seems to want something small, sit in and wants to do both shore and lakes, without investing in multiple boats. People do use these boats to play in surf and rock-gardens. I like this class for the type of kayaking I do around home but never have used them on the ocean -- too much trouble to cart them to the east coast vs just going with an outfitter when I get there. While these boats are still rec boats they have smaller cockpits, skegs, and better outfitting then the class she is looking at. Granted they aren't cheap boats. Sure they aren't speedy boats but with the addition of floats and good skirt would she be safer then what she is looking at, assuming she does stay close to shore and doesn't do anything foolish?

	As above... Posted by: Celia on Jun-20-12 1:44 PM (EST)
	Once you have waves of any scale staying close to shore is out unless someone already knows how to surf. Most of the crossovers are still pretty bad for an on water self rescue, especially if talking water temps in the 50's.

	invest your money wisely Posted by: willowleaf on Jun-20-12 2:30 PM (EST)
	For the $400 you would blow on the Glide, you should be easily able to find a decent used rotomold sea or touring kayak that would be way more comfortable, safe and enjoyable in big water and for most other types of paddling you are likely to do. I've used my 15' x 22" touring kayak for everything from coastal surfing to moderate Class II whitewater. And I have bought 3 very nice quality used touring kayaks in that size range for $400 or less in the past 10 years, a Dagger Magellan, a Perception Chinook and a Perception Scimitar, all with sealed bulkheads, hatches, full deck rigging, rudders and keyhole cockpits that will take a sprayskirt. Considering I live nowhere near the ocean that suggests you should have an even wider selection to choose from. These are just a few current CL ads for kayaks in Santa Barbara, all near or under your budget: http://santabarbara.craigslist.org/spo/3083771260.html http://santabarbara.craigslist.org/spo/3036451685.html http://santabarbara.craigslist.org/boa/3088228351.html http://santabarbara.craigslist.org/boa/3041791535.html http://santabarbara.craigslist.org/spo/3079592797.html

	Good find Posted by: carldelo on Jun-20-12 4:11 PM (EST)
	The OP should be all over that first listing for a 14' Necky with paddle, skirt and pfd for $250. A great way to get started and much better than her original plan.