Kayak Wholesale Prices.
Posted by: DUUJ on May-21-12 7:17 PM (EST) Category: unassigned
Do you have any idea what they are, and or, how they are determined? I am totally amazed that many dealers only mark boats down by five or maybe ten percent, (and they think that's a great deal). I suspect that the pricing model has to be somewhere near that of the publishing industry. (Retail price equals ten times cost.) By that model, a one thousand dollar roto-molded boat would cost somewhere around one hundred dollars to produce. (Yes, I know you need to "roll-in" the cost of the mold, but that is written off over time.) Wholesale cost to dealers would be around thirty to forty percent of the "suggested" retail. So.....why no bigger discounts?
Free Standing Boat Racks
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Posted by: CEWilson on May-21-12 7:34 PM (EST)
Back in the day, when whitewater boats were well under a $K, the cost of the Nth hull was about halfway between one and two hundred to produce and were sold to dealers at a wholesale that was/ is 30 - 40 % below retail.
Posted by: Peter-CA on May-21-12 7:42 PM (EST)
your suspicion is wrong|
Posted by: LeeG on May-21-12 8:18 PM (EST)
30-40%, when you're expecting 15% discounts as a matter of course you're expecting the business to go out of business and the person helping you to be of no value.
I have been|
Posted by: slowerpaddle on May-21-12 8:33 PM (EST)
in the sea kayak business 30 years. started in 1982.
How to make a million in the canoe & |
Posted by: Jsaults on May-21-12 8:54 PM (EST)
You should compare to manufacturing|
Posted by: pikabike on May-21-12 9:29 PM (EST)
Not to publishing. Using your model, then a car with MSRP of $30K costs only $3000 to make. I don't think so!
Posted by: old_user on May-22-12 10:45 AM (EST)
Besides the wholesale cost of the boat to the retailer, the other possibly big variable is FREIGHT. If a retailer can drive to the manufacturer, they often do, as it is cheaper and less prone to damage. But if it has to shipped cross country, could easily be $100 per boat. And freight cost is based on size, not price of boat. So as a percentage of the total retail price, it's actually higher on say a short cheap rec boat than a longer boat. Larger retailers can order a container at a time and save, but this is not possible for smaller brands/shops.
You are way off.|
Posted by: willowleaf on May-22-12 1:21 PM (EST)
I was in outdoor gear purchasing for some years and can tell you that your estimates on markup are WAY out of line. The best markup in outdoor gear tends to be in the lower tech higher volume items like clothing which are "keystoned", which is insider slang for being bought wholesale for half what the list price is (that $100 polartec jacket cost them $50 therefore a 50% margin). When you factor in shoplifting losses and the necessity of periodic clearance sales, any shop that can maintain a profit margin of 15% overall is doing an outstanding job. The mean was more like under 10% net when I was in the business.
Great post w-leaf|
Posted by: johnysmoke on May-22-12 2:45 PM (EST)
2nd that. good post.|
Posted by: slushpaddler on May-24-12 2:29 PM (EST)
The biggest loss|
Posted by: old_user on May-24-12 1:55 PM (EST)
Is that many dealers are no longer willing or enthusiastic about spending the time investing in the customer because they feel that the majority will milk 'em for info and then scan and scram for the best price. Can't blame them because that is exactly what happens quite often. Also can't blame the customer for wanting to save a few $ in the economy but long term maybe the dealer needs to start charging for that "shop education" time!
Reminder that REI is a co-op|
Posted by: willowleaf on May-24-12 7:05 PM (EST)
my local shop is owned by a resident|
Posted by: slushpaddler on May-24-12 7:51 PM (EST)
Got you beat by two years. |
Posted by: ezwater on May-28-12 1:47 AM (EST)
But I haven't been strongly impressed with how member participation and control influences the business. Still, I'm loyal and look to REI first for most outdoor needs.
the "crowing" bothers me|
Posted by: willowleaf on May-24-12 7:20 PM (EST)
I have to confess I was upset by WB's crowing about walking out of the shop when the owner who he'd gotten so much information from got cranky. We all have bad days and i doubt you can really appreciate the level of stress and frustration that arises from trying to run a small outdoor business. i worked for 3 of them and have had friends that operated several more. They put enormous hours into those shops, and are usually teetering on the brink of personal financial ruin at some point every season. All it takes is a few months of bad weather or a dock strike in a foriegn country (like the year we couldn't get any cross country skiis from Norway when the big XC fad hit in the mid 70's) and all your work goes down the drain.
Posted by: guideboatguy on May-24-12 7:43 PM (EST)
You sure hit the nail on the head with that one.
self righteous was an apt description|
Posted by: slushpaddler on May-24-12 7:52 PM (EST)
I really have nothing more to add. This person can make all the claims they want; it's pretty clear that price was a big determinant. Well, down the road, you get what you pay for.
here's what gets me|
Posted by: LeeG on May-24-12 9:17 PM (EST)
someone driving up in a Mercedes could spend $600 at a fancy restaurant paying for four people and tip 20%.
now just how do you think they got the |
Posted by: slushpaddler on May-24-12 9:29 PM (EST)
not by nickle and diming toy purchases|
Posted by: LeeG on Jun-01-12 9:42 PM (EST)
Customers are NOT "always right"|
Posted by: willowleaf on May-25-12 10:31 AM (EST)
I've spent most of my 45 years in the working world in businesses where my responsibilities were to directly "service" the needs of customers. The whole time I have firmly resisted the mistaken perception of "customer service" that is evinced by that old saw "the customer is always right." This is no more true than it would be to say "my children are always right."
good post (NM)|
Posted by: suiram on May-25-12 10:38 AM (EST)
Posted by: sitka on May-25-12 10:54 AM (EST)
I sell electrical upgrades as well...
Posted by: willowleaf on May-25-12 11:18 AM (EST)
(I work for a massive global infrastructure engineering and construction company -- don't get as much "hands on" dealing with customers as I did during the many years when I was a senior PM for electrical contractors)
No, but they always HAVE the right...|
Posted by: pikabike on May-26-12 9:45 PM (EST)
to shop where they like. Just because a shop is local doesn't mean it has a captive audience.
this has come up before|
Posted by: radiomix on May-25-12 10:57 AM (EST)
tipping (and other social negotiations)|
Posted by: willowleaf on May-25-12 11:37 AM (EST)
I only worked as a waitress (back during college) for a total of 3 days. It was enough to give me a lifelong appreciation for how hard they work and what a thankless task it can be. Since then I have never left less than 20% for a tip. If the waitperson seems to be really "in the weeds" I will leave the same even if service has been crappy -- if it is clear that they are overwhelmed because of circumstances beyond their control I will leave even more and then stop and tell the manager that I noticed that the service was being badly run.
the cult of indignation|
Posted by: willowleaf on May-25-12 11:48 AM (EST)
Posted by: stevet on May-25-12 12:01 PM (EST)
that I'm sure many of us have made. You expressed it very well. What I worry about is that young folks who grow up in this environment of "I am entitled not to be offended" don't even understand what you're talking about. Disagreement is not an offense, but very few under 50 or so seem to see it that way.
Posted by: radiomix on May-25-12 1:32 PM (EST)
People get mad because someone is mad, or get offended that they offended someone or they have been offended. This has been going on since the beginning of time. Please don't push this onto young people, I have had my fair share of people over 50 exhibiting this same behavior. What's worse is they use their "wisdom" as a sign of proof they are right.
wrong about Fox News|
Posted by: willowleaf on May-25-12 2:34 PM (EST)
Fox news has been watched regularly by 25% of the public since its inception in 1996. Furthermore it is the single most watched TV news outlet. Ironically, recent studies have indicated that Fox News habitual watchers actually tested lower than people who watched NO TV news at all on being informed about current events.
this will put it in perspective|
Posted by: radiomix on May-25-12 4:32 PM (EST)
but that's a comedy show!|
Posted by: slushpaddler on May-25-12 5:42 PM (EST)
(nevermind that some people take it as a news source...)
Just like the misinformation spewed by|
Posted by: jaws on May-25-12 8:21 PM (EST)
Posted by: willowleaf on May-29-12 12:48 AM (EST)
Fox deliberately spews more misinformation and distortion in one hour on any given day than all the programs on NPR might broadcast accidentally in 10 years. And when NPR discovers they've presented misinformation they generally correct it publicly.
Posted by: jaws on May-29-12 9:18 AM (EST)
a radio station supported by tax dollars given to them by liberal democrats. Yep, no bias going on there!
Posted by: sitka on May-29-12 1:46 PM (EST)
It's not like NPR ran out of money when Bush was in charge with a Republican congress,check your facts.
NPR is bought and paid for just like |
Posted by: jaws on May-29-12 3:19 PM (EST)
FOX. To think otherwise is delusional.
More revolutions by the left|
Posted by: dogmatycus on May-29-12 8:13 PM (EST)
You are right about that. Communism killed a hundred million people in the 20th C.
Posted by: sitka on May-29-12 11:11 PM (EST)
My point is to simply point out that the perception by the modern day right wing in this country that the left is a bunch of pacifists would be erroneous, not to justify the slaughters perpetrated by Mao, Pol Pot, Stalin or others.
Few on the right would ever think the|
Posted by: dogmatycus on May-29-12 11:53 PM (EST)
left were anything but pacific. Too much experience with Hitler, Mussolini, Beider Meinhof, Red Brigades, Sandinistas, Chavez, Castro, etc. Not a lot of calm seas in that lot. The left has a lot of atonement to do before it casts polital violence before the right's feet.
Fascists are not "left wing"|
Posted by: willowleaf on May-31-12 1:41 AM (EST)
Fascists and ultra Nationalists are, by definition, extreme right wing and not left wing, as they seek to maintain and reinforce the status quo (even by force) and concentrate on the establishment of an "elite" privileged class by racial, religious or economic parameters.
You have no idea what you are talking|
Posted by: dogmatycus on May-31-12 3:31 PM (EST)
Not "my" definitions|
Posted by: willowleaf on May-31-12 4:30 PM (EST)
Look, the political definitions have been clearly established and universally accepted since the French Revolution. Your opinions don't change that.
Jeffersonian libertarianism on the left?|
Posted by: dogmatycus on May-31-12 5:12 PM (EST)
Do go on! There is nothing more contray to that then anything held by the left. The linear political progression scale has been in the dust bin for all but simpletons for a very long time. A linear scale cannot possibly hold the complexities of endemic rights and private ownership being anywhere near central planning state monopolies.
your screen name says it all|
Posted by: willowleaf on Jun-01-12 10:13 AM (EST)
You can't answer the question|
Posted by: dogmatycus on Jun-01-12 10:57 AM (EST)
Or even support your misinformation. So typical of the pseudo-intelligentsia.
but I did answer|
Posted by: willowleaf on Jun-01-12 11:24 AM (EST)
Sigh. I did answer your question and provided supporting reference. Just because you didn't like it or agree with it doesn't mean I didn't answer correctly.
I'd be happy to discuss this on the|
Posted by: dogmatycus on Jun-01-12 8:07 PM (EST)
"limited", not "minimal"|
Posted by: willowleaf on Jun-02-12 3:51 AM (EST)
Someone who misinterprets Jefferson's "limited government" as "minimal" rather than "formally bounded by Constitutional limitations" AND who truly believes NPR is some sort of liberal conspiracy is hardly a worthwhile opponent. Might as well remonstrate with a rock. (Link TV must give you the vapors.)
Appeal To Authority types don't|
Posted by: dogmatycus on Jun-04-12 11:53 AM (EST)
really make great debate opponents. I should have known, with all the bumper sticker cliches and all.
you can mark me down|
Posted by: radiomix on May-25-12 11:51 AM (EST)
As being indignant about being indignant. On this I will not bend. Life is way too short to get run over. If that's personally arrogance, mark me down for that too.
good one, Ryan|
Posted by: willowleaf on May-25-12 2:53 PM (EST)
We ought to remember to poke fun at indignation at all times.
Posted by: willowleaf on May-25-12 2:09 PM (EST)
If you re-read my first "volley" in this, I framed it initially as my own response of being upset at hearing what WB's reaction was to the curtness of the dealer he visited. In all honesty, I've had that same reaction myself at times in my life "well, screw them if they are going to give me an attitude, I'll take my business elsewhere." I think that's a prety natural human reaction.
If you are in business|
Posted by: Andy_Szymczak on May-25-12 3:16 PM (EST)
You are entitled to make a profit. Profit needs to cover expenses and overhead and something for yourself. That's the way the world works.
Posted by: carldelo on May-26-12 11:33 PM (EST)
Wow, I see WB deleted the encyclopedia of his/her threads and went home! I was indignant and really wanted to take my business elsewhere, but after some thought I figured I'd just get over myself.
taking my ball|
Posted by: sitka on May-27-12 12:00 PM (EST)
and going home...oh, wait, I am home. Screw this! I'm going to the river!
Posted by: DUUJ on May-31-12 4:25 PM (EST)
How did WB manage to delete his threads?
Posted by: mikepaddle on May-27-12 4:51 PM (EST)
I am curious as to what you do for a living or do you even have a job. You obviously have no business experience. Obviously you are not...but...I have a feeling that If you were a retail merchant and read your post above, your blood pressure would have risen a few points just like mine.
Mike do you have any retail experience?|
Posted by: jaws on May-27-12 10:59 PM (EST)
Posted by: radiomix on May-28-12 7:58 AM (EST)
How can you compare cars and houses to retail kayaks? That is flawed from the beginning. House prices don't have a fixed cost and the "price" is always linked to what someone will pay for it. Sometimes people pay more than the asking price. Cars are also different do to the money making avenues with service and finance kickbacks. The issue isn't competition. It's ignorance to the situation. If you are only interested in best price, by all means buy online. But you can never complain about local business disappearing, lost tax revenue, the lack of product knowledge, etc.
Typing on a computer made in China?|
Posted by: rectorsquid on May-29-12 11:07 AM (EST)
In the end, the business that provides the customers with what those customers want will be the business that wins. If that business is on the internet then so be it.
you're entitled to your opinion|
Posted by: slushpaddler on May-29-12 11:56 AM (EST)
Posted by: radiomix on May-29-12 1:15 PM (EST)
You are doing the same thing jaws is. I understand how this works. Im not even suggesting one should pay more and buy local. The only new boat I own was purchased via internet from qcc. I don't have local shops where I live. The issue here is the lack of understanding what goes into a small retail business. People are trying to compare small local to large local to internet business. You simply cannot do this. All I ask is you look past the purely capitalist ideal and see that sometimes the right thing to do is to stop worrying about 5% and make decisions that might help you in the future. Like when you really need an opinion or need to lay hands on something before buyin, orif you simply don't care, then just don't complain when all local stores are gone. At the very least, don't make a fool out of yourself and get mad when the local shop is selling you stuff at a 5% margin.
keyboards, cars, toilet paper, kayaks|
Posted by: slushpaddler on May-29-12 1:44 PM (EST)
it's all the same!
Same question to you...|
Posted by: mikepaddle on May-28-12 9:51 AM (EST)
Well if what you say is true...|
Posted by: jaws on May-28-12 8:48 PM (EST)
then customers will realize what local shops have to offer, pay the higher price and local shops will prosper while internet sales fall.
Posted by: mikepaddle on May-29-12 9:34 AM (EST)
You still did not answer my question. How does YOUR business respond to people wanting heavy discounts at or below your cost? I feel that you don't have the cajones to give an honest answer.
We kissed the customers ass even|
Posted by: jaws on May-29-12 12:22 PM (EST)
when we knew they were wrong and at times we did jobs at a loss just to show the customer what we could do for them. We could have pointed out how they installed the product wrong and would not cover the cost to fix the problem but then we would be losing customers we could not afford to lose. I worked in a world where low bid was king and if you could not supply a superior product at or below your competition then you were on your way out. It's the way of the world get use to it.
Posted by: slushpaddler on May-29-12 7:08 PM (EST)
The firm I work for is rarely the low on a proposal. So why do we keep getting all this work?
what do you mean, "will"?|
Posted by: slushpaddler on May-29-12 10:41 AM (EST)
Where do you think the original owner of that p&h boat bought it? Here's a hint: not @ Dick's or Wal-Mart. They would never entertain the slim overhead.
low price does not equal value|
Posted by: willowleaf on May-29-12 3:35 PM (EST)
I've worked, at management level, in a lot of companies and I will roundly dispute your contention that you HAVE to price cut to maintain your customer base. Nothing could be more wrong. Research into humans buying habits and behavior continually show that people more highly value things that cost them more. When you cheapen your product it becomes a downward spiral you can never win. As your profits decline, you have to cut costs and your ability to service your customers eventually drops to a point where they get fed up and leave you, either for somebody cheaper (who will also fold soon due to unsustainably low margins) or to someone who is more costly but gives better service and/or fewer hassles.
Posted by: slushpaddler on May-29-12 7:05 PM (EST)
I appreciate the thought that went into that, but I don't think you meant to respond to me. I'm with you on this.
Posted by: willowleaf on May-30-12 10:42 AM (EST)
....not you. Just misplaced the post on the "tree".
Very well written.|
Posted by: Yanoer on May-30-12 7:31 PM (EST)
Must've taken a while, or you're just very good at written communications.
Posted by: willowleaf on May-31-12 1:52 AM (EST)
all were quickly typed "stream of consciousness". Yup, admit I am pretty good at written communication. Have to be in my business as I am too small to be physically intimidating.
only one way|
Posted by: radiomix on May-29-12 3:31 PM (EST)
You get a used p&h. Someone has to buy it new.
Posted by: slushpaddler on May-29-12 7:05 PM (EST)
Posted by: angstrom on May-29-12 3:30 PM (EST)
I like to do it, but I'm clear that I'm just looking and won't be buying. Usually the store staff will just leave me alone, but if the store is quiet sometimes they're happy to talk about their gear. I do think the honesty is appreciated.
Posted by: jdb on May-29-12 4:44 PM (EST)
I like these sort of "inside baseball" type threads, mainly because I know next to nothing about the kayak/paddling industry. But I'm hearing the same sorts of things I've gleaned about the bicycle industry and the same sorts of hand wringing about the "local shops". Now don't get me wrong - I love Mom & Pop's and shop them where and when I can. But Mom & Pop gotta realize that it ain't 1965 anymore; its a global economy now. They have to create some value that customers can't get from Supermart or Discountstuff.com, whether that means service, selection, quality of merchandise, classes, community involvement, whatever. It seems to me that the shops that do that survive and prosper. There is still a market for quality goods that can't and won't be satisfied by the bargain outlets.
Oh ye Sacred Cows, I bow down to you|
Posted by: Waterbird on May-29-12 6:58 PM (EST)
I was surprised when I met pnet administrators at a paddle sports show once. They seemed like perfectly decent people. How did they manage to let this forum degrade into such a cesspool? It resembles a Craigslist forum of DSM-IV codifiable misfits with an anger problem. There are more special interests here than in Washington, and they have zero tolerance for opinions that don't agree with their own. Do not even think of not kowtowing to the sacred cows here.
Price isn't every thing and yet those |
Posted by: jaws on May-29-12 10:56 PM (EST)
morons at Wal-Mart keep bragging about lower prices? How they stay in business is a wonder!!!!!
other factors re Walmart|
Posted by: willowleaf on May-30-12 11:20 AM (EST)
Walmart's "success" is also due to having driven their smaller scale competitors out of business in rural and small town areas where there are now no other options. I have family across the mid West who have few other choices now for groceries and dry goods. In fact, a number of them who at first were thrilled to have a Walmart nearby 20 years ago, now complain about the poor selection and even the pricing, as well as the abandoned businesses that blight their "downtown" areas. (I bite my tongue, since I warned them that abandoning the community based stores they had relied on for generations would degrade the community.) In the small mountain town nearest my boyfriends home in north central PA, where he has lived most of his life, there used to be 9 grocers. Now there is one other chain food store 25 minutes away and a Walmart 8 minutes away.
Two questions about Walmart|
Posted by: rectorsquid on Jun-01-12 3:04 PM (EST)
You hit the nail on the head Dave!!!|
Posted by: jaws on Jun-01-12 4:11 PM (EST)
stopped when I realized|
Posted by: willowleaf on Jun-02-12 4:18 AM (EST)
I sporadically shopped at Walmart in Michigan (in a large city where it had lots of similar sized competition) until I began to realize what they were doing to small town economies and became familiar with their purchasing strong arm techniques and employment policies, all of which I found personally odious. Thereafter I boycotted them completely, even when it meant driving out of my way to do so. It bothers me still to have to sometimes buy things there now when I am staying upstate with my boyfriend (since there are few or no other options there.)
Posted by: radiomix on May-30-12 12:48 AM (EST)
This topic, there seems to be only one poster who has lowered the level of discourse to name calling.
Posted by: willowleaf on May-30-12 10:20 AM (EST)
Posted by: willowleaf on May-30-12 10:39 AM (EST)
Bow down? Not me.|
Posted by: Yanoer on May-30-12 2:28 PM (EST)
I paddle a canoe kneeling with a bent shaft paddle and use in-water recovery control strokes as well as kneel & switch.
I'm feeling the love!|
Posted by: Waterbird on May-30-12 6:12 PM (EST)
Keep it coming. Especially Willowleaf---we're paying you by the word.
Posted by: willowleaf on May-31-12 1:19 AM (EST)
I'll send you my PayPal account link so you can pay up.
advice from an old sage (not me)|
Posted by: ret603 on May-31-12 8:00 AM (EST)
Posted by: willowleaf on May-31-12 11:07 AM (EST)
I know where you are coming from and appreciate the concern. I agree on the folly of "pissing contest" but such exchanges as this current one don't raise my blood pressure at all -- in fact I find them amusing (and a respite from some dead time at work at this point). I'm a major project construction manager by profession. If I took dealing with passive aggressive and self-righteous types to heart I would have gone nuts or had a stroke years ago, since this business is full of them.
Posted by: willowleaf on May-31-12 11:16 AM (EST)
Besides, isn't following "passionate" threads like this more entertaining (and sometimes informative) than the endless reiterations of explaining to noobs why that $200 rec boat from Dick's may not be their best choice for circumnavigating Greenland?
Some on this board are truly legends in|
Posted by: jaws on May-31-12 1:21 PM (EST)
their own minds.
Thanks to all of you|
Posted by: DUUJ on May-31-12 3:28 PM (EST)
This has been...very, very, interesting.
So, 10 days later the OP returns|
Posted by: pikabike on May-31-12 4:26 PM (EST)
Probably another troll post.
Little did you know...|
Posted by: DUUJ on May-31-12 5:52 PM (EST)
I've been under the bridge all along.:)
Posted by: willowleaf on Jun-01-12 10:20 AM (EST)
I never thought you were a troll, but it must have been amusing to watch the other mythological creatures your thread attracted, including at least one harpy, a couple of cranky ogres and a self-professed hellhound.
which would you classify me as?|
Posted by: sitka on Jun-01-12 11:19 AM (EST)
Posted by: willowleaf on Jun-02-12 3:24 AM (EST)
Why, none of the above, fellow leftist (or are we fellow"pseudo intelligentsia"?)
Posted by: DUUJ on Jun-01-12 4:53 PM (EST)
You are observant, and exceedingly prolific!
That's a contradiction|
Posted by: Waterbird on Jun-12-12 9:31 AM (EST)
The best way to be observant is to listen. Being verbally prolific can sometimes get in the way of observing and learning.
both are necessary|
Posted by: willowleaf on Jun-12-12 9:57 AM (EST)
Learning and teaching are not mutually exclusive. There is no sin in being "verbally prolific" if you have information worth sharing. If no one else speaks, what (pray tell) are you going to be observant about and listening to?
Balance is the key|
Posted by: Waterbird on Jun-12-12 10:02 AM (EST)
, isn't it?
Margins are low!|
Posted by: No_Kayak on Jun-12-12 8:06 AM (EST)
In my experience in composites, dealers will max out at about 42% margin. Distributors tend to take 15%-25% or so.
Posted by: old_user on Jan-28-13 4:21 PM (EST)
Did you ever find a whole distributor? Because I am looking to buy about 5 and need "real" wholesale prices.. thanks! RC