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  decked canoes
  Posted by: devilssoninlaw on Jan-20-12 8:24 AM (EST)
   Category: Canoes 

Who here owns or paddles a decked canoe ? Specifically a Wenonah Canak, Clipper Sea 1, Krueger, Superior Expedition...etc. Please tell me what you like or dislike about your boat. Thanks!

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Messages in this Topic

 

  Take a look on the "Watertribe Site"
  Posted by: jackl on Jan-20-12 8:35 AM (EST)
and you should find out something about them.
A lot people use them in the expedition challenges.

Jack L
 
 
  decked canoes?
  Posted by: ret603 on Jan-20-12 8:42 AM (EST)
I have owned a few smaller decked canoes and did own a Mad River Monarch. I continue to own a decked Nomad (think large pack canoe) built by the late Bart Hauthaway.

The primary advantage to me (I only use double blade paddles) is the greatly reduction of paddle drip in the canoe. Getting gear in and out is slightly harder, but not a huge issue. I've read that larger decked canoes (with hard decks or fabric covers are less subject to weather cocking from wind, but I never paddled the Monarch in wind strong enough to know this is true.

Decks will of course increase the weight of the canoe.

Dave
 
 
  Owned a Mad River Monarch....
  Posted by: wildernesswebb on Jan-20-12 9:10 AM (EST)
...which was Verlen Krueger's precursor to the "Krueger Canoe." It was a good paddling boat that could be easily paddled with single blade (which I preferred). It was easy to keep up to speed (I'm not a "Gadget" person, so I didn't use a GPS to find the exact MPH). It was just easy to paddle all day long. The thing I also liked was the low profile that kept it out of the wind. Very comfortable cockpit, that I could keep camera, water, niceties close at hand.

Thought I would keep that boat forever, however; a severed femoral artery damaged my left leg. I could no longer sit in that cockpit (or kayak, etc) without my leg going to sleep. After a couple falls I sold it. It still is going strong in the hands of a friend who paddles it in long distance races. It turned him into a decked canoe "Addict," and he now also owns a Sawyer Loon and a couple Kruegers! I'll let Joe know about this thread as he has become imminently more knowledgeable on the subject. WW
http://www.pbase.com/ozarkpaddler/image/61974034
http://www.pbase.com/ozarkpaddler/image/90004837
 
 
  Mike McRea reviewed decked canoes
  Posted by: headwaters2 on Jan-20-12 9:43 AM (EST)
A few years ago Mike McRea in Maryland and his merry band of paddlers tested 4 decked canoes in coastal waters. I remember it was a very good review with excellent attention to details like carrying capacity, handling in winds and waves, dead pony baseball and Sailor Jerry libations, but I have no idea how to locate the review now. Maybe someone else will be able to locate it. I'd like to read it again, too.
 
 
  Mike's Monarch
  Posted by: ret603 on Jan-20-12 2:23 PM (EST)
The mention of Mike McCrea's Monarch stirred memories. My neighbor bought that Monarch new and then rarely used it. I bought it from him and also used it infrequently during the brief time I owned it. I sold it to a friend. He was using it infrequently, so when Mike mentioned to me one year at Raystown that he was looking for a Monarch, I told him I would check with a friend who might have one to sell. Put the two of them in touch and Mike now has that Monarch.

It's probably now quite modified with Mike's usual touch.

Dave
 
 
  Clipper Sea-1
  Posted by: TommyC1 on Jan-20-12 9:40 AM (EST)
I owned a Sea-1 for a while. It's a very well made boat. It is sized like the Kruger/Superior and the Monarch. It would be a great expedition boat.
It does need the rudder in certain conditions. For me that was it's downfall. I kneel 100% so a foot operated rudder is of no use to me.
Other than that I would prefer a keyhole cockpit that could be used with a kayk skirt and bulkhead/hatches for watertight fore and aft compartments like a sea kayak.
So it was not the boat for me. But for someone considering the Seawind or the like it would be worth considering.
 
 
  Loon/Monarch/Sea Wind/Expedition
  Posted by: joewildlife on Jan-20-12 8:15 PM (EST)
First, here is a link to the aforementioned trip report of the decked canoes:

http://www.paddling.net/places/printReport.html?1053

I now own Mick's Red/White Kruger Sea Wind.

There is a lot of other information about these boats on the Reviews area of this website. Terry, Mick,and I all wrote reviews of one or more of the above boats.

So here is my take on them. In brief, the above four are decked canoes that came about in the listed order. The Clipper Sea 1 is a nice looking boat, but I have never had an opportunity to paddle one. By looking at it, it appears to have more kayak in its genes. The ONLY resemblence of the above four canoes, to a kayak, is the deck, and perhaps the rudder. In my mind, in a canoe you sit up off the floor and single blade. In a kayak you sit near the floor and double blade. Of course this is arguable but I'm not going to get into that here.

When it comes to the above four canoes, I consider them an evolution, started by the legendary expedition paddler Verlen Kruger. The important thing to remember is that Verlen started as a racer and then entered into ultra distance expedition paddling. The canoes reflect that change. When Verlen gave up the canoe making business, Scott Smith, his apprentice, started making the Superior Expedition canoe which was based on the overall design of the Sea Wind with Scott's own improvements. Mark P. continues to build the Sea Wind exactly as Verlen did.

So, the Loon started it all and the slimmest, lowest decked, and least voluminous of the evolution. In Kevlar layup, it can weigh less than 50 pounds. After one of Verlen's initial excursions, he designed the Monarch (with his improvements to the Loon) and licensed Mad River to built it. The weight carrying capacity and volume of the hull increased dramatically. The weight went up a bit. Later, when Verlen began building his own boats, the Sea Wind was born and it was his a further improvement as far as durability, comfort, and efficiency for heavily laden excursion paddling.

For just tooling around in, I prefer the Loon since it is the lightest and probably the quickest. If I need to paddle wearing heavy boots or waders, the low deck of the Loon doesn't work and I need to use the Monarch or Sea Wind. If I'm packing heavy, I'd use the Monarch or Sea Wind. I'd also prefer the latter in very rough waters. The fuller bow of the latter two boats ride over waves while the Loon will dive through them a little bit.

These boats are 17' long, I think the Superior Expedition is even longer. The Expedition is probably the largest volume, most stable, and driest of 'em all. They are all equipped with a rudder. Inexperienced paddlers such as myself really like the rudder, although I'll probably never develop good paddling skills because of my dependence on it!

These boats are made for efficiency. They are not the fastest boats out there. I find they are excellent for expedition races like the MO340, where speed is not the #1 consideration when picking a boat.

Although these boats are 17' long, and in the 45-62 pound range, they portage surprisingly easy with one of the coolest features of any boat, a seat that flips over and has the most comfortable portage pads I've ever seen on the reverse side. This comment applies to the Monarch and Sea Wind (or Loons that have been retrofitted with Kruger or Superior expedition seats)

The only other decked canoe I've ever been in is a Bell Rob Roy 15. A neat little boat, in a whole different class than the above. I think its hull is based more or less, or exactly, on a Merlin 2.

I don't think any decked canoe lends itself to double blading...you sit too high, and the cockpit is very long and open so it doesn't keep you dry or keep drips out of the boat.

Guys like me are called Krugerheads or Loonatics.

Joe
 
 
  Thanks ...
  Posted by: devilssoninlaw on Jan-20-12 9:23 PM (EST)
Thanks for the input! I have a few canoes and a Valley sea kayak and I prefer a single blade which is why I'm looking at a decked canoe. Just thought I'd try to pick everyone's brain before making a decision.
 
 
  I'ld like a kevlar Loon.
  Posted by: Yanoer on Jan-21-12 1:17 AM (EST)
Mine weighs about 56 or 57 lbs.

If I had one of the 45 pounders that you mentioned above, I'd use it a lot more. I don't need expedition tough.

The Loon and Sea Wind are the most reassuring canoes I've paddled.

I rarely use the rudder on my Loon for the short little outings I do for an hour or two. It's too much fun to follow crooked shorelines with just heeling and strokes.
 
 
  Rudders on Loon/Monarch/Sea Wind
  Posted by: joewildlife on Jan-23-12 8:21 PM (EST)
Sawyer Loons were made over a number of years and I have seen them with several kinds of rudders. The first one I had was equipped with a Feathercraft rudder. That rudder had a long thin blade and didn't turn the boat well. And it hummed like crazy in the water. I didn't keep the boat very long, and replaced it with a second Loon that had an early design of the Kruger Sea Wind Rudder. I've tried using the rudder in the "up position" and it just didn't work. Even when in the up position, it had enough blade or bracket in the water to affect the direction of the boat, one way or another. And it didn't want to stay straight and allow paddling without it. So I didn't quite get Yanoer's post about paddling with the rudder up in the Loon...then it occurred to me that his canoe must have a Feathercraft rudder that lifts completely out of the water...duh
I own a Loon, Monarch (pictured in Terry's post), and Sea Wind (Pictured on Assateague island). I don't think I would paddle any other solo canoe for what I do.
Joe
 
 
  Kayak in it's genes
  Posted by: TommyC1 on Jan-21-12 7:10 AM (EST)
Wrote Joe,
"The Clipper Sea 1 is a nice looking boat, but I have never had an opportunity to paddle one. By looking at it, it appears to have more kayak in its genes."

IMO the Sea-1 paddles more like a marathon canoe than any kayak I know of. Not quite as fast and a fair bit steadier but otherwise a lot like the J-200 I had for a while.
 
 
  Love my Clipper Sea1
  Posted by: paddlingfan1 on Jan-21-12 8:49 PM (EST)
I put hundreds of miles on my Sea 1 every year. I couldn't ask for a better performing boat. I love to cover a lot of water fast and the Sea 1 does just that in comfort and safety. I use the rudder seldom which reduces the drag and adds to my endurance. But if the wind or the water gets rough the rudder adds the stability I need to feel safe. Paddling upstream in shallow and fast water the rudder gives the ability to eddy-hop with less energy used to hold a line adding to endurance. Forget the double blade. The weight reduces your endurance.
 
 
  Rudder and drag
  Posted by: guideboatguy on Jan-21-12 11:37 PM (EST)
The cool thing about a rudder is that, being at the extreme tail end of the boat, it has far more leverage for changing the boat's heading than your paddle has. That isn't important for supplying strong steering effort. It's important because it means the steering effort that's needed is very small, and when steering effort is small, so is the resulting drag. You can demonstrate this for yourself. Experiment with paddle-ruddering a coasting boat and it becomes obvious that the farther back you reach with the blade, the less angle is necessary for a given amount of steering power, and the less angle you use the less drag there is. What I have heard many times, and I believe it to be true based on the logic and experiment just mentioned, is that using a rudder for correction is more efficient than using correction strokes. I think Kruger had this pretty well figured out, as he was one to work with proof rather than hunches. Yes, the rudder has drag, but its overall effect is to improve efficiency.
 
 
  good post
  Posted by: joewildlife on Jan-23-12 6:00 PM (EST)
never thought of that. You do understand the efficiency concept that Kruger was a master of.
 
 
  Love my Clipper Sea1
  Posted by: paddlingfan1 on Jan-21-12 8:49 PM (EST)
I put hundreds of miles on my Sea 1 every year. I couldn't ask for a better performing boat. I love to cover a lot of water fast and the Sea 1 does just that in comfort and safety. I use the rudder seldom which reduces the drag and adds to my endurance. But if the wind or the water gets rough the rudder adds the stability I need to feel safe. Paddling upstream in shallow and fast water the rudder gives the ability to eddy-hop with less energy used to hold a line adding to endurance. Forget the double blade. The weight reduces your endurance.
 
 
  Well said
  Posted by: Joe_O on Jan-27-12 5:06 PM (EST)
Fast though not as fast as a J200 but far more stable. Nice canoe, I enjoyed mine very much when i had one. Would love to get one with just a little less volume and pinched in a bit for a tighter marathon style stroke. Been thinking of building one now for a few years.
The one I had, it served me well for a 6000 km solo trip several years back. Well built and paddled well.

Cheers... Joe O'
http://www.joeopaddles.com/
 
 
  kruger owner
  Posted by: paddletothesea on Jan-23-12 12:09 AM (EST)
14-year owner of kruger sea wind: three pages of details and photos
Here's why,
http://normanmiller.blogspot.com/2008/04/part-1-what-i-paddle-and-why.html

http://normanmiller.blogspot.com/2008/04/part-2-what-and-why-i-paddle-story-of.html

http://normanmiller.blogspot.com/2008/04/what-i-paddle-and-why-story-of-sea-wind.html
 

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