I'm looking at buying my first canoe, and I'm torn between buying a used 17' Loweline aluminum or a new Pelican Dakota 15.5' canoe. I'm sure the Pelican is lighter, but I really like the look of the older aluminum model. I'm not planning to do any whitewater travel; mainly slow local rivers and lakes, and primarily day trips with one of my kids or my wife (so I won't be packing a lot of gear).
My guess is the 17' is probably more canoe than I need, but I also wonder how well the Pelican will hold up long-term (especially being stored under my deck, which is likely where it'll end up).
A friend said aluminum boats almost always leak, and they're heavy relative to those made of plastics; but I also think the aluminum boat would probably hold value better than the plastic ones.
The price is the same for both boats...so any suggestions as to which would serve me best?
Canoe Pack Liner
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Posted by: jhb8426 on Sep-14-10 12:29 AM (EST)
There's some variation in aluminum|
Posted by: ezwater on Sep-14-10 12:34 AM (EST)
quality, but I see more Pelicans wrapped around trees than I see aluminum canoes.
Ram-X material is prone to warping|
Posted by: guideboatguy on Sep-14-10 1:46 PM (EST)
I can't be sure about the new models, but ALL older canoes made of Ram-X plastic are severely warped. By "severely warped", I'm talking about deviations of several inches. Some of the boat-rental places that I drive past on a regular basis have Coleman canoes (the predecesor of Pelican) made of Ram-X, and even though the boats are stored on racks 300 feet off the road, the warping can easily be seen when driving by at highway speed. I don't think there is a worse hull material than Ram-X.
you said "river" ......|
Posted by: pilotwingz on Sep-14-10 7:50 PM (EST)
...... do these rivers have rocks ??
I almost agree...|
Posted by: Al_A on Sep-14-10 11:48 PM (EST)
Aluminum sucks on rocks and gravel, because as you said it sticks rather than slipping over it. Plastic is much better...except that the Ram X plastic is so inferior otherwise that I'd still prefer aluminum over it. And as for keel vs. no keel, I agree completely if it's a plastic boat, because the keel does nothing on a plastic boat but get the preponderance of wear and tear, rather than spreading it around...it is totally ineffectual for keeping the canoe tracking straight. However, on aluminum I actually prefer a regular inch-tall keel, rather than a shoe keel like that which was on the old Grumman whitewater models, because on aluminum, the keel catching all the wear and tear is better than spreading the wear over the whole bottom.
Taking the plunge|
Posted by: nosirrahg on Sep-15-10 11:04 AM (EST)
I've committed to the Loweline aluminum canoe, and should be picking it up this Saturday. I don't know if I'll get a chance to put it in the water this weekend, but we'll see.
aluminum is noisy ......|
Posted by: pilotwingz on Sep-15-10 12:27 PM (EST)
Posted by: guideboatguy on Sep-15-10 1:03 PM (EST)
yeah, the old style flat poly seats in|
Posted by: pilotwingz on Sep-15-10 1:37 PM (EST)
This is funny, but expected|
Posted by: guideboatguy on Sep-15-10 4:12 PM (EST)
You say "I'm not going to argue with you gbg" And then you proceed to do exactly that, using the same style of argument about boats as you do when espousing the merits of super-cheap paddles.
And I can add:|
Posted by: jackL on Sep-15-10 4:20 PM (EST)
I have a OT Disco and have had it for a long time.
I wasn't arguing w/you gbg ......|
Posted by: pilotwingz on Sep-16-10 12:33 AM (EST)
You are applying an extreme situation...|
Posted by: guideboatguy on Sep-16-10 10:29 AM (EST)
Aluminum is noisy in part because it|
Posted by: ezwater on Sep-15-10 4:42 PM (EST)
is thin and stiff, like a soundboard. If there is one thing I don't like about my new, very light, very stiff Millbrook OC-1, it is that it is about as noisy as aluminum. I don't even have to hit any rocks or gravel, the boat can sound like a trap drum as the flat underside of the bow hits the waves.
Weights, Aluminum vs Discovery Poly|
Posted by: plaidpaddler on Sep-15-10 5:35 PM (EST)
There is only one Grumman 17' that weighs close to the 85# of a 169 Discovery. It would be the Whitewater 17 with shoe keel. The conventional 1740C model is in the mid 60's.(Will look up the exact weights when i get home). And the Loweline canoe the OP asked about is in the range of the 1740C and is certainly no heavier.
Floatation in the ends|
Posted by: ogre on Sep-15-10 6:40 PM (EST)
If the floatation in the ends is suspect, you can usually knock out the rivets that hold the cover plate and pull out all the old stuff and replace it. I have a michi-craft from 1978. I picked it up and put it on the car roof. While driving down the road, a snake slithered out onto the hood. When I took the end covers off, there was only half the original foam left, lots of dirt and garbage. Cleaned it out and filled it with pool noodles and spray foam and sealed it up. Used bolts to hold covers back on. It is old and dull, so there is no glare, and besides that's what polarized sunglasses are for. I also haven't been burned yet by the metal. Cut the keels off - it had three- and now the thing turns on a dime and I can heel it over a bit. It's a 17 footer and I often paddle it alone. Have fun.
and if you had an Oldtown or similar ...|
Posted by: pilotwingz on Sep-16-10 1:54 AM (EST)
pp , add 500 lbs. or more and then .....|
Posted by: pilotwingz on Sep-16-10 1:32 AM (EST)
None of which is applicable to the ...|
Posted by: guideboatguy on Sep-16-10 10:12 AM (EST)
sure it is gbg ......|
Posted by: pilotwingz on Sep-16-10 11:44 AM (EST)
Posted by: guideboatguy on Sep-16-10 1:15 PM (EST)
This guy has no plans to carry 500 pounds of gear, and thus plaidpaddler's statement is quite relevant. The statement was probably relevant even with that load, but that isn't what he was talking about.
you vilify yourself gbg , i have no ....|
Posted by: pilotwingz on Sep-16-10 2:11 PM (EST)
...... desire or intention to act such a way toward you .
Again, try reading|
Posted by: guideboatguy on Sep-16-10 3:02 PM (EST)
my take is my take gbg ..........|
Posted by: pilotwingz on Sep-16-10 3:41 PM (EST)
If you are saying that the Coleman|
Posted by: jackL on Sep-16-10 7:02 PM (EST)
Ram-X is a better canoe than a aluminum canoe, then you don't know diddly squat about either of them !
what , are you another one jackl .......|
Posted by: pilotwingz on Sep-16-10 9:46 PM (EST)
Your words -Not mine !|
Posted by: jackL on Sep-17-10 5:18 AM (EST)
"it's just not going to be as tough as the old Grummans are , but in many ways I feel it's the superior canoe by a large margin ".
good enough jackl ,|
Posted by: pilotwingz on Sep-17-10 9:12 AM (EST)
....... in "many" ways I feel the little Coleman RamX 15' is a superior canoe by a large margin .
Most reviewers over-rate their boats.|
Posted by: ezwater on Sep-17-10 9:54 AM (EST)
As to hull materials, one way to tell is to see what people are using for deep Arctic expeditions. Another is to see what the really serious whitewater creekers are using. Neither Ram-X nor Old Town-like poly sandwiches are showing up in those environments.
g2d , I said ......|
Posted by: pilotwingz on Sep-17-10 10:38 AM (EST)
Sorry, that boat does not reach "OK"|
Posted by: ezwater on Sep-17-10 3:45 PM (EST)
for me. Especially with many better alternatives on the used boat market. I guess I've been spoiled. I once picked up a used Mad River Guide with extensive outfitting and a snap on spray cover for $400.
well , I wouldn't purchase a .......|
Posted by: pilotwingz on Sep-17-10 4:06 PM (EST)
Aluminum boats work|
Posted by: jhb8426 on Sep-15-10 9:36 PM (EST)
I had an alumacraft for 50 years and it had no noticeable dents, and didn't leak when I gave it to my son
sure they work , they are even pretty ..|
Posted by: pilotwingz on Sep-16-10 2:08 AM (EST)
most aluminum canoes I've seen ......|
Posted by: pilotwingz on Sep-16-10 10:45 AM (EST)
Did you sleep during science class?|
Posted by: guideboatguy on Sep-16-10 10:54 AM (EST)
gbg , you must be totally cluesss ......|
Posted by: pilotwingz on Sep-16-10 11:29 AM (EST)
This isn't worth it, but it is you who .|
Posted by: guideboatguy on Sep-16-10 1:10 PM (EST)
gbg , the OT hull that has the .......|
Posted by: pilotwingz on Sep-16-10 1:42 PM (EST)
...... full floatation core is in contact with the water (it's not inside the canoe being payload like persons , gear etc. ... it's floatation is reacting to the water , it's floatation is resisting the desire to sink , it's floatation is floating up (called bouyancy) ... it helps the canoe hold up a greater payload , it floats higher for x payload . it's all those gazzilions of tiny tiny air bubbles trapped in the floatation core . The poly and floatation core poly are lighter than water , they float "up" , and can carry a greater payload x than a single sheet aluminum boat .
I give up.|
Posted by: guideboatguy on Sep-16-10 1:54 PM (EST)
cut a one foot square section out of ...|
Posted by: pilotwingz on Sep-16-10 2:55 PM (EST)
...... the bottom of an OT canoe , cut the same out of an aluminum .
Posted by: guideboatguy on Sep-16-10 3:05 PM (EST)
Get The Lowe|
Posted by: wildernesswebb on Sep-16-10 11:08 AM (EST)
what is it about those blow moulded|
Posted by: pilotwingz on Sep-16-10 11:21 AM (EST)
....... plastic Oldtown seats (the new style , not the old flat ones) .
Can you adjust them? Can you put ...|
Posted by: guideboatguy on Sep-16-10 1:32 PM (EST)
...your feet under them? Seriously, you are sounding more like Pamlico_14 all the time.
no gbg , you can't adjust them ......|
Posted by: pilotwingz on Sep-16-10 2:30 PM (EST)
Seats - Good Grief!|
Posted by: guideboatguy on Sep-16-10 6:08 PM (EST)
gbg , you ask if the Oldtown seats|
Posted by: pilotwingz on Sep-16-10 10:52 PM (EST)
Okay, I misunderstood that part|
Posted by: guideboatguy on Sep-17-10 10:37 AM (EST)
All of the "contoured" plastic seats I've seen in Old Towns have been box-like structures going all the way to the floor, glued to the hull around the whole perimeter of the seat. I assumed that since you were talking about these seats as if there is a whole lot of floatation in there, and in that style, that's true. I've seen plenty of Old Towns with that kind of seat construction, and I don't like them. Anyway, none of this changes the fact that your interpretation is complete nonsense, that bouyant materials carried inside a sealed hull, whether they are seats or even the hull material itself, somehow make the hull float higher. It really appears that you are willing to ignore the laws of physics so that you can invent your own reasons to view all these cost-cutting features as something special that can't be found on better boats.
if a plastic boat gets a burr ......|
Posted by: pilotwingz on Sep-16-10 12:20 PM (EST)
...... a gouge that has peel stick up , and can draw blood (especially on wet hands/skin) ... an aluminum boat can draw much more blood .
Old Town Seats|
Posted by: plaidpaddler on Sep-16-10 7:19 PM (EST)
The blow moulded seats used in the Discovery series do allow kneeling. they are thicker and heavier than the usual Old town cane seats. They do offer greater durability and increased floatation when swamped. Both good things for outfitters. Pilotwngz will think they also make the canoe float higher in the water cause they are bouyant; but their extra 5 pounds of weight will add to the total hull weigh and displacement. When swamped they do help to keep the hull upright. All the hull floatation from the core tends to make a swamped Discovery turn over. The bouyant core in the hull bottom wants to rise to the surface.
you act like a knucklehead also pp .....|
Posted by: pilotwingz on Sep-16-10 11:22 PM (EST)
...... pilot would not think the floataion in the seats would make the canoe float higher (unless swamped) .
I've offered about as many things ......|
Posted by: pilotwingz on Sep-16-10 11:56 PM (EST)
....... as I am aware of , thoughts for consideration , as to why the OP might want to consider other canoes , other palstic constructions (OT's 3 Layer Superlinear Polyethylene , Royalex , or other similar canoe constructions) , other than either the Aluminum or Pelican .
I am sorry to say I read the whole thrd.|
Posted by: Kanoo on Sep-17-10 2:34 AM (EST)
Pilot, you don't know WTF you are talking about. From what a good paddling canoe is, all the way to how buoyancy works. For you, I think it is STFU and learn before you pipe up. Your facts aren't facts, your opinions are puerile.
you've said "nothing" kanoo .....|
Posted by: pilotwingz on Sep-17-10 9:43 AM (EST)
Posted by: Kanoo on Sep-18-10 2:20 AM (EST)
The answer to both questions is "no"|
Posted by: guideboatguy on Sep-17-10 10:18 AM (EST)
gbg , I pretty much agree with ........|
Posted by: pilotwingz on Sep-17-10 2:21 PM (EST)
One final attempt to expain|
Posted by: guideboatguy on Sep-17-10 11:30 PM (EST)
thank you gbg , for an excellent ......|
Posted by: pilotwingz on Sep-18-10 1:03 AM (EST)
E xcellent Treatise Guideboatguy|
Posted by: plaidpaddler on Sep-18-10 8:18 PM (EST)
That was a better explanation of bouyancey and displacement than i ever got in physics class.
Just a point that may have escaped|
Posted by: ezwater on Sep-17-10 3:57 PM (EST)
some about linear poly canoes.... There are a few very serious whitewater open canoes made in linear poly. They are always amongst the smallest on the market. The reason is that linear poly is not a particularly stiff material, but if it is used for short, rounded whitewater open canoes, it is stiff enough, just as it is for whitewater, touring, and sea kayaks.
scared a bit|
Posted by: old_user on Sep-17-10 11:34 PM (EST)
of my ram x kayak .weird i sure wish i found this forum a long time ago. i still like my pelican but i could of done better if i saw all the post here..