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  Easy Rolling Kayaks
  Posted by: kocho on Mar-16-10 1:24 PM (EST)
   Category: Kayaks 

-- Last Updated: Mar-16-10 1:27 PM EST --

How about stirring a discussion on what makes a kayak easy to roll? In my limited practical observation, there are many factors, but one of the more important seems to be the relative position of the center of gravity of the paddler's body during the righting stages of a roll combined with the righting moment a kayak can generate.

"Dooh!", you say, the lower you are and the more help you get from the kayak, the easier you roll. Sure, but how does this translate to kayak features?

The play/river WW kayak I have allows me to "cheat". The boat 26-27" wide with flat bottom and square sides so it is very stable (upside or down). It was causing me trouble rolling at first as it was so stable when upside down and I could not time my roll well. However, after some practice I think it is has become easier to toll than my other kayaks! When doing certain rolls, the stern and/or the side submerge when on edge a lot more than my sea kayaks do. I probably also sit a lower overall in that short boat. In effect my center of gravity during the last phase of the roll is considerably lower compard to my higher volume sea kayak. Also, once past a certain point in righting-up, the stability of the kayak kicks-in and felps considerably in bringing me up. That allows me to do an almost effortless roll if done right, e.g. smoothly, no splashing and even using just a half paddle held with two loose fingers.

I can also do an almost effortless roll in my short sea kayak (especially with a GP to slow things down and give some more lift). That's because the kayak not only allows me to get pretty flat laying back on my rear deck but it also sits relatively low in the water when on its side or half-up (not a low volume boat but not terribly big for me either). Still, that kayak is harder for me to roll compared to the WW kayak in bumpy conditions since it tries to keep both ends above water much more than the WW does. While I find that kayak easy to roll in flat water, sea waves, or surf, I have more trouble rolling it quickly in WW rapids where my WW boat is easier.

My third kayak also allows me to lay fairly low on the rear deck, but the kayak is higher volume and sits higher on the water overall. My center of gravity is higher at all points (paddling or rolling). So, even though I can still lay almost flat on the deck, my center of gravity is high and that makes the roll require more effort than in either of the other two kayaks above. This kayak is also quite narrow and round, so it does not have much of a righting moment like the other two kayaks have once past a certain point - it does not impede my initial righting with excessive stability but also does not "help" with righting me up like the other two do.

C2C or forward finishing rolls are also harder for me in the higher volume kayak, I think due to the same factors above.

So, in effect, it seems that kayaks with ...
- lots of rocker (place the paddler low when up), and/or
- low volume (place the paddler low when sideways), and/or
- that sink down during a roll (place the paddler low when sideways), and
- are not too "tippy" (have strong righting moment)
... manage to place the paddler low in the water during the righting stages of a roll and create a bigger righting moment. They are thus easier to roll.

The shape of the hull (e.g. wide or narrow or flat or round) seems to be secondary about how easy a kayak is to roll compared to the above considerations.

A kayak that has good stability (but not excessive as to hinder initial righting) may be easier to roll than a really tippy narrow boat since the more stable kayak "assists" the paddler in righting him once past the edge where stability begins to increase.

I'm pretty tall at 6'4" and therefore find rolling a little harder than someone a foot shorter -;)

Thoughts?


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Messages in this Topic

 

  Yes.
  Posted by: cd1 on Mar-16-10 1:50 PM (EST)
 
 
  Two words
  Posted by: suiram on Mar-16-10 1:54 PM (EST)
Spring Roll
 
 
  ...
  Posted by: jcbikeski on Mar-16-10 2:06 PM (EST)
I haven't compared a lot of boats, but it seems narrow and low volume (especially rear deck) help. I'm not sure I'd agree that a tippy boat is harder to roll though maybe harder to keep up once you come up (ooops, went too far and over I go again). The tippier of my two yaks is easier though it also is narrower and lower volume.

I wonder if the reason you found a sea kayak harder to roll in rapids is that it was more likely to broach in which cases rolling on the wrong side (sweeping away from the wave) would be harder.

 
 
  One thing..... Designers will seldom
  Posted by: ezwater on Mar-16-10 3:00 PM (EST)
market a ww kayak that is "hard" to roll. My '82 Noah Magma has a flattish bottom but poor initial stability. It is at its most stable when upside down. I'm sure Vladimir Vanha was not thinking mass market and rollability when he marketed it. But it was my first kayak, I learned to roll in it, and I could roll it in battle conditions. In the other kayaks I have owned, failure to roll was entirely due to my technique breaking down, not to anything about the boat.
 
 
  No clear answer
  Posted by: sternman on Mar-16-10 3:14 PM (EST)
Lot's of things determine how easy a kayak can be rolled. Hull shape and volume can really make a difference.I think beam has the least effect unless you're talking really wide lke 24" plus. Both my kayaks are 21" wide, fairly stable and roll quite easily. One has hard chines and is slightly higher behind the cockpit so takes just a wee bit more muscle. I can't comment on short vs long but again, it's probably more about volume, hull shape and where it's placed than length. The paddlers size and skill level obviously plays a big part. Some of us including myself have a bit more upper body mass to deal with.

Gary
 
 
  Easy to roll
  Posted by: old_user on Mar-16-10 3:49 PM (EST)
-- Last Updated: Mar-16-10 3:50 PM EST --

One of the easiest to roll kayaks is the Tahe Marine Greenland

 
 
  Did You Mention Rear Deck Height?
  Posted by: Kudzu on Mar-16-10 4:09 PM (EST)
I once borrowed a boat with a very high rear deck. No layback possible. Yuck.
 
 
  It is not the boat
  Posted by: Dr_Disco on Mar-16-10 4:12 PM (EST)
Different boats require different techniques, but once you know what that is the boat becomes easy to roll. For example, WW boats with high flat sides typically require that you delay maximum energy output until later in the roll (rather than the immediate burst that most people employ). Jackson WW kayaks roll very easily with a layback hip snap (the roll EJ teaches) but do not respond as well to a traditional C2C, especially a forward finishing one. The Dragorossi Fish is a bear to roll with a traditional C2C but responds well to forward finishing. Learning your boat is probably more important than making a list of characteristics that make a boat "hard to roll".
 
 
  I
  Posted by: fadedred on Mar-16-10 6:31 PM (EST)
Agree...body, boat, blade.....that is the order of importance for a roll....

the boat notation has nothing to do with chines etc. it has to do with boat position and control

it's really all about the person and very little about the other two if you are just talking about doing a roll

When You start talking about doing many differant rolls of assorted contortions....then the boat starts to matter...and if you start talking about getting lucky in order to roll, then the blade starts to matter.

to really understand rolling....it's about the person, not the kayak.

Best Wishes
Roy
 
 
  It seems your hitting some important
  Posted by: dong on Mar-16-10 5:47 PM (EST)
points. Some rolls like the c-c are a hit or miss type roll that requires good timing and aggressive technique. I feel that a roll that can be performed with minimal strength is the most dependable. Kayaks that can be balanced braced suit this type of roll best. Hull design, seat height, coaming shape and size are very important. A kayak that balance braces will have very good secondary stability which will help your bracing and keep you upright. Most manufacturers don't seem to care about these features. Every kayak can be rolled with different technique but why not make a kayak roll very easily. The only manufactured kayak that I have paddled that meets these specs is the Outer Island by Jay Babino. Being a competent roller allowed Jay to make the proper design features.
 
 
  dong
  Posted by: old_user on Mar-16-10 6:08 PM (EST)
"Most manufacturers don't seem to care about these features."

and by "most", whom are you referring?

steve
 
 
  I don't mean to offend anyone
  Posted by: dong on Mar-16-10 7:13 PM (EST)
plus it would be ignorant of myself not to take into consideration the many differences in paddlers. I have heard many good things about the Tempest kayak but have never had the opportunity to paddle one so my previous comments are not intended toward that kayak.
 
 
  s'okay dong
  Posted by: old_user on Mar-16-10 9:16 PM (EST)
I took your post to mean that most kayaks are not well designed to roll because the vast majority of kayaks made and sold are recreational boats.They are the moneymakers for many kayak makers. Seakayaks as a general genre are but a small fractional niche of the market.

Given their intended market & users, traits desireable to rolling are not a factor and thus not emphasized. That is, anyway, how I took it.

What makes a boat a good roller? The perfect intersection of design, fit, and the paddler's ability to make the most of them. Sell that in a bottle then you got somethin'
 
 
  A
  Posted by: fadedred on Mar-16-10 6:44 PM (EST)
-- Last Updated: Mar-16-10 7:25 PM EST --

c2c does tend to be an all or none roll....but does not need to be done with gusto once the person actually becomes a competent roller...it can be accomplished with finesse.

And all kayaks are roll able, it's part of the design of any kayak...but not all paddler’s are competent rollers...sad, but way too true.

Buy.... whatever kayak you like to paddle, and learn it's idiosyncrasies and it will roll easy. torsional rotation is also a part of the caricaturistics of the hull. They don't all roll at the same speed, some need to take their time coming around and will refuse to be hurried and don't really care that you own them...and demand it to be lightning fast

Best Wishes
Roy

 
 
  Having a fit...
  Posted by: rosborn45 on Mar-16-10 7:44 PM (EST)
To me fit is critical - by that I mean contact at the foot braces, thigh braces, and back. If I am too loose in a boat I flop around in it and the boat does not move when I move. Too tight, and I lose my range of motion. There aren't many boats I can't roll if I have good contact and I can bend forward and sideways. The most surprising roll I ever did was in a perception prism sot with thigh straps. Another surprise was rolling a sea kayak that did not have thigh braces. I guess it was round enough it just rolled like a log, so indeed, boat shape is also a factor.
 
 
  easier ones for me -
  Posted by: NateHanson on Mar-16-10 8:02 PM (EST)
My experience is that boats with boxier profiles seem to finish easier. The tempest 165 and avocet, for example, are slightly more forgiving than a pintail, even though the dimensions and volume are quite similar for all. The pintail has a more rounded profile between the side and bottom, and doesn't have a flat bottom like the other two.

That said, it's a very small difference. All three are great rollers. What makes them good? I'll have to leave that to the designers.
 
 
  Hull shape
  Posted by: sternman on Mar-17-10 9:42 AM (EST)
Although it's likely to be very contravercial I still think to the individual, hull shape has some affect. I find some kayaks get kind of stuck on the way around. My Outer Island with soft chines feels smooth and predictable. This will of course vary depending on user. I have friends that prefer hard chines. There's no right or wrong it's just what works for you. This subject also needs to be defined depending on the type of rolling you do. I practice Greenland style with an occasional screw roll thrown in. The screw roll works great for kayaks that have higher freeboard.

Just my opinion,

Gary
 
 
  Hull Shape
  Posted by: Kudzu on Mar-16-10 8:19 PM (EST)
I dunno about your idea about hull shape. In roll classes some years back everyone scrambled for the Pirhouettes. They were hot dog shaped hulls. No one wanted the pancake shapes.

 
 
  Agree
  Posted by: JayBabina on Mar-17-10 11:14 AM (EST)
This summer I was playing with some white water boats and the newer flat bottom types were a bit stubborn to roll. I found that a lot of WW paddlers were using a lay back style and coming up on the back corner which made it easy. But the old bullet shaped hulls come around very easy. Most sea kayaks, once you have a decent roll come around pretty easy and ironically, the big round tanks come around very easy. Not talking about the super low and narrow rolling boats.
 
 
  Mixing up whitewater and sea kayaks
  Posted by: dogmatycus on Mar-16-10 8:58 PM (EST)
is going to draw out comments from paddlers of both disciplines. Hopefully, you will also get paddlers who regularly do both, regardless of whether a specific sea kayak should be paddled in whitewater. Since no one has said it, in moving water getting set with the current usually makes a roll easier than fighting it out on your preferred side, on whichever way you capsized.

Dogmaticus
 
 
  Little difference
  Posted by: DJC on Mar-16-10 9:02 PM (EST)
I use both a P&H Capella 160 and a Prijon Capri Tour for rolling. They're both completely different boats, but one is easy to roll as the other. The Capri has a much higher rear deck, but still easy to roll. The more difficult boats to roll are the ones that don't fit as well. The bigger difference for me is the type of roll. I started with the C2C, thinking the 3-count movement would be easy. I switched to a standard sweep roll and it's much easier and almost effortless. That's my take on it anyway.
Don
 
 
  For what it's worth...
  Posted by: Celia on Mar-17-10 8:35 AM (EST)
The last time I tried suggesting that some boats were easier to at least learn to roll in, a couple on this board got pretty cantankerous about it and indicated I didn't know my arse from a hole in the ground. Good luck!
 
 
  FWIW II
  Posted by: sing on Mar-17-10 12:08 PM (EST)
-- Last Updated: Mar-17-10 12:11 PM EST --

Unless one is a rolling competitor, I think folks should pick a craft for intended functions rather than supposed "rollability." For example, I don't ride waveskis for it's "rollability." It's actually a bit more demanding to roll than a surf kayak which is more demanding than most other kayaks. I ride waveskis because they fly on a waveface.

Similarly, I didn't pick my SOTs for rolling but because these are good fishing vehicles. Heck, if I fall off, I can just climb back on. But, the fact is that I can roll both my RTM Disco and Scupper Pro SOTs. Ditto I can roll my ww creeker and my playboat.

I guess I don't get all the talk about "rollability" because I taught myself to roll and in a cape lookout which is supposedly not a "good boat" to learn in. Never got in (caught by) how "tough-rolling-is" mindset.

From my perspective, all the talk about "rollability" of kayaks is a bit over-hyped, unless one is seriously into Greenland type comps. Otherwise, we pick (or should pick) a particular kayak (or paddle craft) likely for reasons/usage that we intend for it the majority of time we go out, besides supposedly how "easy" it rolls.


sing

 
 
  I
  Posted by: fadedred on Mar-17-10 1:12 PM (EST)
agree totally

Best Wishes
Roy
 
 
  Part of the sport
  Posted by: sternman on Mar-17-10 9:04 PM (EST)
Among my fellow paddlers kayaks are often chosen for several reasons. First, we enjoy touring but also we love to roll. It's just an extension of our enjoyment. There are some that do compete but for many it's simply for fun. I know there are those with the "you don't need to roll" mindset. That's fine if you choose not to. Rolling to some is like an art form. It adds another dimention to paddling. Why not leave it at that? If someone wants a kayak that's easy to roll then that's their choice.

Done here...
 
 
  I
  Posted by: fadedred on Mar-17-10 9:47 PM (EST)
agree...afterall...that is..... buying a kayak for it's intended purpose...like Sing said

The purpose doesn't have to be singular......paddling and rolling can be it's purpose, just as , just paddling or just rolling or just floating can be it's purpose.

but they all roll if the person doing the rolling has spent the time to learn the way that particular hull rolls and not try to define it's roll for it outside it's capacity.....such as speed rolling a slow rolling kayak etc.

So as Sing said, buy, for intended purpose....but learn the kayak before blaming it for the rollers inabilities. The more specialized rolls do take a dedicated rolling boat....but the majority of the rolls don't so a kayak can be purchased and used for paddling and also for most of the rolling for fun and for exercise and for relaxation (Yoga in a boat)anything under 22 inches wide fits this catagory.

Best Wishes
Roy
 
 
  Think of the Children
  Posted by: BobW on Mar-25-10 10:36 AM (EST)
While different hulls feel different during the roll (think Primary & Secondary stability) I find that my position in the boat greatly effects the ease of roll more than the hull shape.
Lately I have been paddling an older Pyranha I:3 river runner/playboat where I am wedged in pretty tightly with very splayed legs and my feet are in that awful playboat toe point.
I find that rather than my usual reflexive C2C where I come up upright and ready for more, I am coming up heavily biased toward the back deck and not IMHO as ready to continue with the party as with my more normal roll.
Though the boat comes up just fine it is the position I am forced into that makes it feel harder.

Just a thought.

PS, learned to roll in a long boat and initially trying to roll a short WW boat where the ends would dive felt very disconcerting.
 

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